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today on the show prolific author Nick

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Redfern returns to talk all about his

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latest book the Rendlesham forest UFO

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conspiracy a close encounter exposed as

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a top secret government experiment

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people do want to hear about UFOs and

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they don't want to hear about Nick

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talking about hologram you know I'll be

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brutally honest I know people don't want

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the truth to be what it is in my book

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they want it to be extraterrestrial but

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I mean I can only present it as it is

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but that's one of the most brilliant

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things about it you know the reason why

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these programs work is because so many

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people do want that to be the answer

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they want the alien angles they don't

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want to know that Rendlesham was a

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secret military experiment and that's

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what you're up against that you follow

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gee this is somewhere in the skies

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[Music]

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Nick thanks for joining me once again on

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somewhere in the skies absolutely I

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think the last time we spoke was face to

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face actually in Michigan for the UFO

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con so I'm excited to catch up man yep

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yep and you had a controversial book

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come out around that time as you do

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today so we're gonna be talking today

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about the Rendlesham forest UFO

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conspiracy a close encounter exposed as

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a top secret government experiment that

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subtitle I think is going to be the the

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contention today with many people in the

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UFO field but um I'm really excited to

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talk to you about this one man oh well

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thanks I mean it's one of these things

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that people may not know the books

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called the Rendlesham forest UFO

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conspiracy and it takes sort of a

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different approach to the UFO angle but

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arguably you could say it's more

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controversial in some ways than it could

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be if aliens really did land and this

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being ufology you know some people think

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that i'm right on target other people

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wanna sort of you know throw me on a

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bonfire or just lady there's been a lot

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of good debates and arguments but it

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always tell people I've got thick skin

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and you know for an argument

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bring it on you know that's that's what

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it's debate is for you know to try and

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get to the heart of what the truth is of

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this particular case and and see where

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it leads us you know yeah absolutely and

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this is definitely one of those cases

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where I think there is a wide-open field

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of alternative theories because just

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like most UFO cases we don't have a

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solid definitive answer on what happened

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and we are kind of left with you know

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what the majority think Roswell was

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aliens Rendlesham was aliens but when

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you start to really look at these things

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and look at it with a fresh perspective

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I think these theories are bringing

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forward have a lot more truth to them

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that I think a lot of people are willing

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to accept as true believers of a ety

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kind I would say but um before we even

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get to that Nick

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you're probably sick of answering this

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question but for some of my listeners

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who may not be too familiar with the

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Rendlesham case could you maybe give us

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kind of a you know the 101 rundown of

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what Rendlesham is and what the original

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event was all about well it began like

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the part of December 1980 quite

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literally over the Christmas period and

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Renison forest is a large area of forest

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in the county of Suffolk in England and

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it's near they look it up and allâh on

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the map it's it's close to the east

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coast and it's a very intriguing

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location because all around that area

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you've got or you used to have at the

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height of the Cold War a number of

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British Royal Air Force bases which

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actually had leased out to the u2 the

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United States and so although the bases

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that where the two bases involved in the

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incident Royal Air Force Bentwaters and

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Royal Air Force Woodbridge although the

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events occurred on UK soil the bases

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themselves were actually staffed by US

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personnel largely not completely but

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largely so we have this situation where

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you've got military and on both sides

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the UK and the US in varying ways being

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involved and the story is that around 26

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27 December 1980 and the numbers are

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actually sort of a little bit vague

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because over the years people have come

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forward to say well you know something

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else happened on the third night and on

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the fourth night and there are stories

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about and just over the Suffolk border

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there's another County they're called

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Norfolk and there were rumors of another

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experiments going on there as well on

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one of the same nights so we don't

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admittedly after 40 years you know there

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are some things we don't know about it

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apart from the fact that the case is

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almost unique because you think about it

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most UFO events you know somebody say

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something and they take a picture or

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they just see it and you know tell

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somebody this is

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really difference because it wasn't here

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one second and gone the next second like

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so many UFO cases this went on for three

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or four nights and so that's one of the

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reasons why it's really stuck in

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people's minds and and the fact that you

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know there were a couple of dozen if not

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more military personnel out in the woods

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collectively on the under various nights

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and so it's become it's become known as

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like the British Roswell not because

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anything crashed but because of the the

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sheer visibility of the case and also

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the fact that you know it involves so

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many military people so that's

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essentially the story and what the the

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people saw the guy saw was sort of

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lights in the sky beams of light kind of

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like a red pencil laser light things

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like this and reports of some of the the

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the witnesses seeing what looked like a

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craft and there was this sort of strange

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mist as well in the woods so everything

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about it was sort of really weird and

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Atmospheric right super trippy almost

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and I mean that kind of comes with the

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territory of Rendlesham forest so before

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we even dive into some of these theories

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on what could have landed there if

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anything landed there I know you've done

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a lot of research into Rendlesham forest

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itself with a lot of the the folklore

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and history to this place and I was

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wondering would you mind touching on

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kind of a this stranger aspects of this

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forest before we've been dive into the

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event two sides to this one of them is

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sort of the the conspiracy angle and by

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that I mean that a lot of people who

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have heard of the case and herded

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Rendlesham forest they may not know of

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the sort of history of secret projects

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of varying ways that have actually

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occurred in and around the area for

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example in the early 1930s the British

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government secretly created a new

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program to develop radar and it was

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called the Tizard committee and this was

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when radar was really in its infancy and

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this occurred as I said it was set up in

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the 1930s and continued through the

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second we

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war not too far from Rendlesham forest

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there's a little village called shingle

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Street and there'd been rumors for years

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in fact decades that a contingent of

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German troops tried to secretly invade

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the UK from the east coast

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and they were all killed by some sort of

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technology that literally set them all

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on fire as they started to get onto the

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beach and there was in the 1960s there

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was a top-secret radar operation called

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Cobra mist which also operated out of

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air as well and also Marconi had a

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presence in the same area now to put

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this into sort of stark reality of it

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all but Izzard committee cobra mist

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shingle streets with the strange deaths

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and all the various other radar programs

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and so on all of them the Marconi

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company as well and all of these

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facilities all of these classified

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programs all took place less than eleven

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miles from Rendlesham forest so in other

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words you know a lot of people think

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Rendlesham forest is just this regular

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forest and something once happened there

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that was weird well weirdness he sort of

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Rendlesham forest middle name you know

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going right back to the 30s now there's

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the other side of it which is more of a

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supernatural side I guess there are

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legends of sort of like phantom black

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dogs as they're known in the UK sort of

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ghostly phantom black dogs roaming

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around the woods and large Black Panther

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type cats and ghostly figures so

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everything about Rendlesham forest is

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kind of weird but for me you know the

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the most important thing I guess in

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terms of the historical aspect of it all

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is the fact that like it or not the fact

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is that that entire area has been

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subjected to top-secret programs not

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just for years but for decades and I

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think that's an important thing when you

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look at the location and you look at the

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history you know it does become too

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difficult not too much of a stretch to

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say well you know

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four or five tops experiments going on

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in that direct area from the 30s to the

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80s then why not run a similar program

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in the same error again in relation to

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like a UFO theme experiments as well

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right right and you know these this idea

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that you know when you think of 11 miles

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here at America that's not that far so I

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mean then there's there's so much

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evidence that this is an area where you

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would do these types of experiments and

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one of the earlier ones you you cover in

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the book is um Edgewood Arsenal this was

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really interesting its significance with

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Rendlesham forest and this idea of ball

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lightning you know one of these excuses

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we heard later on during Project Blue

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Book for many UFO sightings as well so

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yeah would you mind kind of running us

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through this theory Nick of what ball

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lightning is first of all because I

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still can't really wrap my head around

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it and say graduate arsenal yeah well

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essentially all lightning is a very rare

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form of lightning and you know if you

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see you know a lightning bolt a

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thunderbolt you know and the the

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lightning coming down in like a like a

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jagged stick you know something like

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that in the skies you know everybody's

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seen that kind of lightning most people

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have never seen ball lightning and

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essentially it is exactly what it sounds

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like it's when you have this rare

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situation where the lightning actually

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turns into like a plasma ball and it can

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sort of you know it'll instead of like a

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bolt of lightning you know where you

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suddenly see for a second or two with

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ball lightning it kind of moves slowly

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in this spherical shape and it's

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something you know if you ever see it

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which I'd ever have but if you ever see

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it it really is like a fantastic thing

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it's kind of just imagine like a globe

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just totally lit up and slowly moving in

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the skies and and giving off these

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sparks of light now in the 1950s but

272
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:24,650
particularly selmour in the 1960s

273
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:28,040
research began to try and determine

274
00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:31,519
if if bull lightning could actually be

275
00:12:38,579 --> 00:12:35,630
controlled and weaponized and this all

276
00:12:41,769 --> 00:12:38,589
went along at the Edgewood Arsenal in

277
00:12:45,730 --> 00:12:41,779
Maryland and this was a top-secret

278
00:12:48,129 --> 00:12:45,740
program called kugelblitz kugelblitz is

279
00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:48,139
actually German for ball lightning

280
00:12:52,059 --> 00:12:49,720
that's where the name came from and

281
00:12:54,009 --> 00:12:52,069
possibly one of the reasons why it was

282
00:12:56,379 --> 00:12:54,019
called that was because some of the

283
00:12:59,019 --> 00:12:56,389
scientists who worked on it 20 years

284
00:13:02,139 --> 00:12:59,029
earlier they worked on some of the

285
00:13:05,470 --> 00:13:02,149
so-called paperclip projects that

286
00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:05,480
brought the German Nazi scientist over

287
00:13:10,199 --> 00:13:07,910
at the end of the Second World War so a

288
00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:10,209
lot of controversial and top-secret

289
00:13:15,939 --> 00:13:12,889
research was going on at the Edgewood

290
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:15,949
Arsenal as I said they the plan was to

291
00:13:21,129 --> 00:13:19,130
try and see this ball lightning could be

292
00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:21,139
weaponized that's to say could it be

293
00:13:27,759 --> 00:13:24,529
directed using technology including

294
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:27,769
laser beams to direct all lightning up

295
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:29,690
the enemy in other words you know you

296
00:13:34,689 --> 00:13:32,000
could do away with tanks and missiles

297
00:13:37,689 --> 00:13:34,699
you could literally use ball lightning

298
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:37,699
and you know arguably create even more

299
00:13:43,269 --> 00:13:40,880
damage to the enemy and this particular

300
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:43,279
program went on for years

301
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:46,240
the kugelblitz one by that name began in

302
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:49,850
1965 and I've now got some files which

303
00:13:55,569 --> 00:13:52,639
show it was going through to the 1970s

304
00:13:59,769 --> 00:13:55,579
now the reason why I mentioned this in

305
00:14:03,129 --> 00:13:59,779
the book is because what the guys out in

306
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:03,139
Rendlesham forest saw in in Rendlesham

307
00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:05,050
forest that night on the first night

308
00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:08,300
some of the material that was described

309
00:14:15,429 --> 00:14:10,990
in the skies by the guys in the woods

310
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:15,439
eerily parallels what ball lightning is

311
00:14:20,829 --> 00:14:17,930
when you see moving along as I said it's

312
00:14:23,379 --> 00:14:20,839
like a spherical ball anywhere from the

313
00:14:25,749 --> 00:14:23,389
size of like a soccer ball up to like a

314
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:25,759
beach ball maybe sometimes a little bit

315
00:14:33,009 --> 00:14:29,050
larger and it gives us these weird

316
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:33,019
Sparks and glowing particles now what's

317
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:36,050
intriguing is that that is exactly what

318
00:14:41,010 --> 00:14:38,930
Colonel Holt who wrote the famous memo

319
00:14:43,470 --> 00:14:41,020
about the about what happened on one of

320
00:14:46,590 --> 00:14:43,480
on the first two nights in that

321
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:46,600
particular memo if you read in parallel

322
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:50,170
what Holt had to say and the work being

323
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:52,210
done at the Edgewood Arsenal it sounds

324
00:14:59,690 --> 00:14:55,570
very much like that in December 1980

325
00:15:02,610 --> 00:14:59,700
somebody had perfected this angle of

326
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:02,620
replicating or controlling and

327
00:15:08,420 --> 00:15:05,710
weaponizing ball lightning and they were

328
00:15:12,510 --> 00:15:08,430
testing it out over Rendlesham forest

329
00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:12,520
now he gets more intriguing because the

330
00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:16,870
Edgewood Arsenal was also where a lot of

331
00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:19,660
early mind control that's similar to the

332
00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:24,550
see I am I am I am K ultra program of

333
00:15:30,810 --> 00:15:27,790
the 1950s onward so when you've got a

334
00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:30,820
facility that he's working to create

335
00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:33,700
ball lightning which in the sky kind of

336
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:36,520
looks just like a UFO and at the same

337
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:39,610
place they're also doing top-secret

338
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:43,110
research into MKULTRA type

339
00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:45,510
investigations and experiments to

340
00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:49,180
manipulate the human mind etc etc then

341
00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:51,940
you realize you know this was all going

342
00:15:56,730 --> 00:15:53,830
on at the same time that's an important

343
00:15:59,940 --> 00:15:56,740
thing to note as well and there's also a

344
00:16:03,420 --> 00:15:59,950
mind control my manipulation component

345
00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:03,430
in in the Rendlesham forest story as

346
00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:05,980
well so you put all that together then

347
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:08,140
you start to see a picture beginning in

348
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:11,920
the mid sixties through to 1980 when he

349
00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:15,010
sounds very much like that by that time

350
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:17,590
by nineteen eighty they've sort of got

351
00:16:22,980 --> 00:16:20,800
the program running up and you know sort

352
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:22,990
of seeing what the guys responses were

353
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:26,170
you know to see how they reacted to the

354
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:28,630
idea could these be UFOs where actually

355
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:32,800
it was a combination of controlled and

356
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:35,410
weaponized ball lightning mind

357
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:38,620
alteration and also with a third

358
00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:41,050
category that of the use of

359
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:43,540
sophisticated pala grams

360
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:45,730
yeah and we'll definitely get to that I

361
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:49,530
do want to move back to the idea of

362
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:52,510
using the mind with this Nick now we go

363
00:16:58,380 --> 00:16:54,970
from okay fine ball lightning in the sky

364
00:17:00,210 --> 00:16:58,390
this could be what halt you know and the

365
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:00,220
other officers witnessed we've heard the

366
00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:02,560
audio tapes of them describing this and

367
00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:04,600
you're right it sounds no pun intended

368
00:17:10,199 --> 00:17:06,820
strikingly similar to this ball

369
00:17:13,439 --> 00:17:10,209
lightning but then you get to this next

370
00:17:15,210 --> 00:17:13,449
level of mind alteration we do know a

371
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:15,220
lot of the officers said they felt like

372
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:18,730
they were either you know going in slow

373
00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:20,350
motion or they felt like they were

374
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,470
almost in this like weird altered state

375
00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:25,839
and some of the officers even said they

376
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,180
felt like they were drugged and we moved

377
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:30,400
to a different place that I know you've

378
00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:31,810
done a lot of research into and that's

379
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:34,990
port and down so yeah I was wondering

380
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,120
could you maybe we go from ball

381
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:39,760
lightning to this next idea of now on

382
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:41,770
the ground where officer said this thing

383
00:17:47,370 --> 00:17:45,310
possibly landed and other things happen

384
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:47,380
so what is Porton Down has to do with

385
00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:48,250
all of this

386
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,380
well portent down is an interesting

387
00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:52,960
place in the southwest of England and

388
00:17:58,260 --> 00:17:55,240
it's a highly classified top-secret

389
00:18:00,800 --> 00:17:58,270
facility in the southwest of the UK

390
00:18:04,770 --> 00:18:00,810
actually not too far as the crow flies

391
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:04,780
from Stonehenge and so it kind of got

392
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:07,210
its own little historical area so to

393
00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:09,970
speak but over the years certainly

394
00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:12,550
although it sort of began during the

395
00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:15,670
First World War it really sort of became

396
00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:18,790
- came to the fore so to speak in the

397
00:18:22,890 --> 00:18:20,830
Second World War and certainly

398
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:22,900
throughout the early years of the Cold

399
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:26,050
War so we thought talking about the 50s

400
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:31,210
and the 60s now when the CIA started to

401
00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:34,240
do all their research into MKULTRA and

402
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:39,040
my manipulation hallucinogenics LSD busy

403
00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:42,460
all these other mind-altering phenomena

404
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:45,400
the UK of course has always had a good

405
00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:49,810
relationship with the US and when port

406
00:18:54,510 --> 00:18:52,300
and down decided in the 50s to get more

407
00:18:55,670 --> 00:18:54,520
and more involved in the field of things

408
00:18:59,540 --> 00:18:55,680
like LS

409
00:19:02,570 --> 00:18:59,550
and how it could be used on personnel to

410
00:19:05,630 --> 00:19:02,580
see how the sheer extent that he could

411
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:05,640
alter the mindset well one of the things

412
00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:09,900
that they decided to do was to dos UK

413
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:13,920
military personnel with LSD to see what

414
00:19:18,380 --> 00:19:16,440
the response was now you know people

415
00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:18,390
said to me well there's no way you know

416
00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:20,070
that the British government of British

417
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:22,200
military would do that but they actually

418
00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:24,510
did and that the file some of the files

419
00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:27,350
at least have now been Declassified and

420
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:30,600
film footage was taken which you can now

421
00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:34,290
actually see online and basically what

422
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:35,700
it was they ran this experiment

423
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:38,610
scientists from Porton down and took

424
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:40,710
them to an area of forest interestingly

425
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:43,410
enough you know under the forest not too

426
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:46,170
far for important down in this case the

427
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:47,730
guys were asked if they would be willing

428
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:50,400
to go along with an experiment but they

429
00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:52,050
didn't tell them anything about the

430
00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:53,640
experiment they just said you know we

431
00:19:57,170 --> 00:19:54,660
want we're going to give you something

432
00:20:00,440 --> 00:19:57,180
and we just want to see how you respond

433
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:00,450
and within minutes of being dosed with

434
00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:03,570
us with a small amount of LSD they

435
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:05,400
started to you know just couldn't

436
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:06,930
function properly some of them are

437
00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:08,970
climbing trees and whatever just

438
00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:12,180
laughing one guy in the in the footage

439
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:14,550
looks like he's about to have a severe

440
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:17,730
panic attack and there's a female nurse

441
00:20:22,790 --> 00:20:19,910
hanging on to his wrist and China

442
00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:22,800
reassuring and this demonstrated you

443
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:24,360
know that the British government was

444
00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:28,320
quite billing to test things like LSD on

445
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:31,080
their troops and some other guys you

446
00:20:35,630 --> 00:20:33,570
know they were only sort of 2021 but

447
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:35,640
four years later it sort of stayed with

448
00:20:42,170 --> 00:20:38,880
them now the reason why I keep this in

449
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:42,180
mind and why I put it in the book was

450
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:44,700
because of the parallels between what

451
00:20:49,490 --> 00:20:47,190
went on in Mendelson forests we have

452
00:20:51,230 --> 00:20:49,500
some of the guys as you said you know

453
00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:51,240
they weren't able to walk around

454
00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:53,790
properly some of them felt you know they

455
00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:56,070
were walking in like water you know it

456
00:21:00,920 --> 00:20:58,620
was just sort of hard for them there was

457
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:00,930
memory loss there was sort of a lot of

458
00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:03,510
bright light you know more visual than

459
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:07,160
before or they should be and this was

460
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:08,490
1964

461
00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:17,850
you'll find numerous websites about this

462
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:19,830
and one of them it'll take you to

463
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:21,650
youtube where you can actually watch

464
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:25,590
portions of this experiment but the

465
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:27,830
important thing for me you know this

466
00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:31,530
1964 that was only sort of sixteen years

467
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:35,220
before Rendlesham british soldiers black

468
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:39,710
t marines were exposed to mind-altering

469
00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:44,400
phenomena in a forest and the military

470
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:47,790
the the the superior so to speak filmed

471
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:50,250
it all and there are rumors that the

472
00:21:57,140 --> 00:21:54,179
guys him in Rendlesham forest were also

473
00:21:59,060 --> 00:21:57,150
filmed quietly to someone within the

474
00:22:01,340 --> 00:21:59,070
woods we don't know who exactly did that

475
00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:01,350
but the parallels between what happened

476
00:22:08,419 --> 00:22:06,540
in 64 and 1980 is so close that I had to

477
00:22:10,430 --> 00:22:08,429
pull you in the book but I wasn't the

478
00:22:12,410 --> 00:22:10,440
only one to sort of look into the port

479
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:12,420
and down angle another another one of

480
00:22:19,490 --> 00:22:16,050
them was Rear Admiral Admiral the fleet

481
00:22:21,169 --> 00:22:19,500
Lord Hill Norton who was in the 1970s he

482
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:21,179
was one of the most powerful and

483
00:22:26,270 --> 00:22:23,550
influential painting the British

484
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:26,280
military in the Ministry of Defence in

485
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:28,710
the 1970s and when he retired he

486
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:31,530
actually developed a deep interest not

487
00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:34,770
just in UFOs but in Porton Down and the

488
00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:37,830
Rendlesham connection and he actually

489
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:40,500
pushed the government to tell him what

490
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:43,890
went on and bear in mind you know he was

491
00:22:48,140 --> 00:22:45,960
retired by then so he was kind of out of

492
00:22:51,230 --> 00:22:48,150
the out of the loop you know it was no

493
00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:51,240
longer in the know so to speak he was

494
00:22:55,070 --> 00:22:53,100
basically given the brush-off

495
00:22:58,190 --> 00:22:55,080
even though you know back in the 70s he

496
00:23:00,320 --> 00:22:58,200
held this senior position but he heard

497
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,330
rumors through his contacts in

498
00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:02,880
governments that yes a team had been

499
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:06,440
secretly brought in to Rendlesham forest

500
00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:09,900
almost certainly the night before the

501
00:23:14,150 --> 00:23:11,790
first series of events so everything

502
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:14,160
could be sketched set up you know late

503
00:23:18,340 --> 00:23:16,890
deep in the wards late at night nobody

504
00:23:20,740 --> 00:23:18,350
really around

505
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:20,750
he learned that as I said in almost

506
00:23:26,380 --> 00:23:23,770
certainly that the team from Porton Down

507
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:26,390
had got up in to rendlesham forest at

508
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:28,010
night before everything was prepared

509
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:30,169
along with the technology that was

510
00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:34,010
needed for the holograms and the and the

511
00:23:38,650 --> 00:23:35,780
ball lightning and that might sound like

512
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:38,660
a lot of things going on but you know

513
00:23:43,090 --> 00:23:41,090
dosing the guys or at least some of them

514
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:43,100
wouldn't have been that difficult you

515
00:23:48,820 --> 00:23:45,919
know Holograms can be projected quite

516
00:23:51,130 --> 00:23:48,830
easily and you know and if your mind is

517
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:51,140
already warped that's going to make it

518
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:54,530
even easier and with the ball lightning

519
00:23:59,380 --> 00:23:56,510
as well if you add that to it you know

520
00:24:02,799 --> 00:23:59,390
we know for sure that that program had

521
00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:02,809
been going on from 1965 and certainly

522
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:05,870
through the 1970s so in other words the

523
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:08,210
guys who were running this program were

524
00:24:13,659 --> 00:24:10,730
already primed you know to know what to

525
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:13,669
do right yeah and you know the the word

526
00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:16,460
staged comes to mind a lot when it comes

527
00:24:20,590 --> 00:24:18,590
to this a lot of the people felt like

528
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:20,600
this was some sort of performance

529
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:23,360
happening moving to the hologram thing

530
00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:25,250
Nick this I don't know if this is just

531
00:24:31,149 --> 00:24:28,100
really good timing on your part but

532
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:31,159
within the last few weeks I think it was

533
00:24:36,190 --> 00:24:33,919
the Department of Defense and the Navy

534
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:36,200
came forward and said they were looking

535
00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:39,500
into patents for plasma lasers to sort

536
00:24:44,110 --> 00:24:41,870
of you know for air defense purposes

537
00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:44,120
shoot a hologram out there the enemy

538
00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:45,740
will fire at that and meanwhile our

539
00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:48,950
plane will go away and we know that in

540
00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:50,600
the past these things have been rumored

541
00:24:56,399 --> 00:24:53,000
as well you know shining Holograms of

542
00:24:59,289 --> 00:24:56,409
God in the sky and whatnot so yeah what

543
00:25:01,180 --> 00:24:59,299
was this really good timing on your part

544
00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:01,190
that your theory came forward at the

545
00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:03,049
same time these articles started to come

546
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:04,280
out or what are we dealing with here

547
00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:07,039
this is insane well at the very least

548
00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:09,220
it's like an incredibly weird

549
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:11,830
coincidence you know or the ultimate

550
00:25:17,260 --> 00:25:15,260
synchronicity but they actually you know

551
00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:17,270
the story that you're talking about when

552
00:25:22,299 --> 00:25:19,820
this earth is just recently I actually

553
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,309
did my second interview when that story

554
00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:24,799
broke and so you know talk about timing

555
00:25:29,289 --> 00:25:27,500
you know I guess we could sort of go

556
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:29,299
down all sorts of conspiratorial

557
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:32,000
pathways to explain that

558
00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:34,370
or you could say to coincidence you know

559
00:25:37,450 --> 00:25:35,150
and I'm just

560
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:37,460
or maybe it's somewhere in between you

561
00:25:43,570 --> 00:25:40,400
know but the important thing is you know

562
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:43,580
it does demonstrate the research has

563
00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:46,190
gone on and he's going on you know to

564
00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:49,670
sort of present imagery that isn't

565
00:25:54,580 --> 00:25:52,550
necessarily what it appears to be or you

566
00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:54,590
know the other way round you know so

567
00:26:00,460 --> 00:25:57,230
yeah that was sort of a weird time you

568
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:00,470
know timing in relation to the

569
00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:02,810
revelations and of course you know it

570
00:26:06,970 --> 00:26:05,150
was tied in with UFOs as well whether

571
00:26:09,490 --> 00:26:06,980
there's something more to this you know

572
00:26:10,780 --> 00:26:09,500
I don't know of anything else you know

573
00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:10,790
that's what's going on behind the scenes

574
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:13,190
you know all I've got is we got in the

575
00:26:18,430 --> 00:26:16,250
new stories etc etc but you know when

576
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:18,440
you look at a subject like UFOs which is

577
00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:21,050
sort of filled with weirdness it

578
00:26:25,470 --> 00:26:23,000
wouldn't surprise me if somewhere

579
00:26:28,690 --> 00:26:25,480
there's a connection you know between

580
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:28,700
the story coming out at broadly the same

581
00:26:35,230 --> 00:26:32,450
time yeah and I mean like you mentioned

582
00:26:37,450 --> 00:26:35,240
- we've we've attempted these things in

583
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:37,460
the past right I mean you came across

584
00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:40,430
some files and whatnot that stated you

585
00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:41,870
know we have tried to use this as a

586
00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:44,030
psychological warfare thing in the past

587
00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:45,550
right oh yeah

588
00:26:49,930 --> 00:26:47,750
towards the end of the book you know I

589
00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:49,940
talk about a bunch of other cases which

590
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:52,550
I think could have fallen to fall into

591
00:26:57,270 --> 00:26:55,070
the same category as Rendlesham you know

592
00:27:00,340 --> 00:26:57,280
sort of manipulation of the mind and

593
00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:00,350
staged events and you know the more I've

594
00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:02,120
dug into it the more and more I think

595
00:27:08,350 --> 00:27:05,540
this has gone on and I think but

596
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:08,360
basically the way I look at it is that I

597
00:27:14,170 --> 00:27:11,810
do fully believe there is a genuine UFO

598
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:14,180
phenomenon I absolutely believe that now

599
00:27:19,090 --> 00:27:16,730
whether it is extraterrestrial or

600
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:19,100
multi-dimensional or extra-dimensional

601
00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:22,250
or just something we cannot fathom what

602
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:25,070
they are at all period you know I do

603
00:27:30,390 --> 00:27:27,470
believe there is a real UFO phenomenon

604
00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:30,400
but what I think has happened is that

605
00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:33,350
agencies scientific agencies military

606
00:27:38,590 --> 00:27:35,660
agencies intelligence agencies have

607
00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:38,600
realized that yes there is this weird

608
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:41,270
phenomenon that we don't understand but

609
00:27:45,490 --> 00:27:44,000
they can essential or they decided at

610
00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:45,500
some point probably the

611
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:48,220
these forties fifties they decided to

612
00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:52,250
sort of hijack the real phenomenon so

613
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:54,350
they could use it as a means to their

614
00:28:00,399 --> 00:27:57,049
you know to their benefit so to speak so

615
00:28:04,539 --> 00:28:00,409
we'll be talking about creating UFO

616
00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:04,549
events to test mimed altering technology

617
00:28:10,659 --> 00:28:07,100
see how the human mind responds to this

618
00:28:12,490 --> 00:28:10,669
or to that and then you know say then

619
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:12,500
the military can have a sort of a way

620
00:28:16,750 --> 00:28:14,720
out by saying oh well it was just UFOs

621
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:16,760
it was nothing to do with us so I think

622
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:19,330
you know there has been this intriguing

623
00:28:25,690 --> 00:28:22,970
angle of government agencies knowing

624
00:28:29,409 --> 00:28:25,700
there's a real phenomenon but also using

625
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:29,419
it as a tool of experimentation on

626
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:31,370
people as well yeah I think the

627
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:33,530
government is very good at being

628
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:36,169
opportunistic when when it fits their

629
00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:38,809
you know their motives and yeah like you

630
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,000
said pushing that alien narrative even

631
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:44,240
if that's not the source of what's going

632
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:46,490
on has probably been used a lot in the

633
00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:48,710
past and the whole hologram thing it's

634
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:51,080
it's very fascinating to me Nick but I'm

635
00:28:55,419 --> 00:28:52,730
gonna play devil's advocate here I know

636
00:28:58,510 --> 00:28:55,429
some of my listeners have wondered as

637
00:29:00,460 --> 00:28:58,520
well Holograms of the officers being

638
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:00,470
possibly drugged and looking at these

639
00:29:04,270 --> 00:29:02,210
things in the forest is one thing but

640
00:29:07,390 --> 00:29:04,280
what about catching these things on

641
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:07,400
radar we know the radar operators were

642
00:29:12,399 --> 00:29:09,890
tracking these objects into Rendlesham

643
00:29:15,130 --> 00:29:12,409
forest long before it even arrived there

644
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,140
so I mean is this just another whole

645
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:18,320
part of this staged performance or yeah

646
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:19,610
what are we dealing with when it comes

647
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:21,289
to these things actually being trapped

648
00:29:27,820 --> 00:29:24,530
on radar well yeah good point because

649
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:27,830
you know what we're talking about is a

650
00:29:32,140 --> 00:29:29,840
case that you know he sort of would be

651
00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:32,150
the heart of ufology so one way or

652
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:35,030
another you know we need to sort of get

653
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:38,330
to the heart of it now in terms of the

654
00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:40,850
the whole hologram thing the first

655
00:29:48,490 --> 00:29:44,750
person who was told this story was a guy

656
00:29:52,299 --> 00:29:48,500
named Rob O'Shea and in the 1980s ray

657
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:52,309
ran the Nebraska office of MUFON the

658
00:29:57,370 --> 00:29:55,130
mutual UFO network and he did you get a

659
00:29:58,830 --> 00:29:57,380
lot of expertise you know very good

660
00:30:03,060 --> 00:29:58,840
expertise in the field

661
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:03,070
of Rendlesham contacted a senator and

662
00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:06,190
had a huge amount of correspondence

663
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:08,980
which rate very generously let me use in

664
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:12,129
the book and to also present some of the

665
00:30:18,269 --> 00:30:15,340
documents themselves in the book and it

666
00:30:21,149 --> 00:30:18,279
was after he'd sort of pushed and pushed

667
00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:21,159
with his senator and various other

668
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,240
figures that in 1991 Ray was approached

669
00:30:29,149 --> 00:30:27,279
by what we would call you know sort of

670
00:30:31,919 --> 00:30:29,159
two departments of Defense

671
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:31,929
whistleblowers and they said that they

672
00:30:36,419 --> 00:30:34,240
wanted to share with him the truth of

673
00:30:38,850 --> 00:30:36,429
what happened at Rendlesham now it's

674
00:30:40,649 --> 00:30:38,860
important to note that Ray wasn't the

675
00:30:43,619 --> 00:30:40,659
only one he was the first one to hear

676
00:30:45,869 --> 00:30:43,629
this story but as I point out in the in

677
00:30:49,230 --> 00:30:45,879
the book you know various researchers

678
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:49,240
have followed this particular story now

679
00:30:55,109 --> 00:30:52,210
I'll just read this is a quotation from

680
00:30:58,259 --> 00:30:55,119
Ray when I interviewed him about this

681
00:31:01,379 --> 00:30:58,269
angle that concerns the the hologram and

682
00:31:03,330 --> 00:31:01,389
he said I found it interesting that they

683
00:31:05,369 --> 00:31:03,340
that's the two whistleblowers would

684
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,379
mention Rendlesham their meeting they

685
00:31:11,009 --> 00:31:07,360
said there was a sense that this was

686
00:31:13,019 --> 00:31:11,019
maybe in some sense staged or that some

687
00:31:14,999 --> 00:31:13,029
of the senior people there were more

688
00:31:17,180 --> 00:31:15,009
concerned with the reaction of the men

689
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,190
how they responded to the situation

690
00:31:24,210 --> 00:31:19,840
rather than what was actually going on

691
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:24,220
and he said basically he said that even

692
00:31:28,259 --> 00:31:26,470
if it was a type of hologram they said

693
00:31:31,859 --> 00:31:28,269
he could interact with the environment

694
00:31:33,779 --> 00:31:31,869
the tree marks and the pod marks at the

695
00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:33,789
landing site were indications of that

696
00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:36,190
but how can you have a projective thing

697
00:31:42,749 --> 00:31:39,059
like a hologram that also has material

698
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:42,759
physical capabilities one of the people

699
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:45,279
who looked into this as well was was

700
00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:48,730
Jenny Randall and I'll just give you

701
00:31:53,850 --> 00:31:51,519
Jenny's words as well she's a people who

702
00:31:55,950 --> 00:31:53,860
don't know she's a long term UFO

703
00:31:59,549 --> 00:31:55,960
researcher in the UK going back to the

704
00:32:02,039 --> 00:31:59,559
1970s and she'd the way it was explained

705
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:02,049
to her was this is a device this is her

706
00:32:06,239 --> 00:32:03,730
words now this is a device which

707
00:32:08,669 --> 00:32:06,249
manipulates the subatomic basis of

708
00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:08,679
matter at a quantum level and builds a

709
00:32:12,130 --> 00:32:10,750
bridge between mind and physical

710
00:32:14,050 --> 00:32:12,140
substance

711
00:32:16,510 --> 00:32:14,060
if I understand it correctly to edit

712
00:32:18,940 --> 00:32:16,520
they supposedly stimulated the mind into

713
00:32:21,460 --> 00:32:18,950
having vivid hallucinations but at the

714
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:21,470
same time creating physical effects in

715
00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:23,330
the real world which could take on a

716
00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:25,580
semblance of the appearance and there

717
00:32:31,630 --> 00:32:28,190
loosen ated images so this sort of gets

718
00:32:33,940 --> 00:32:31,640
into you know sort of really you know

719
00:32:35,770 --> 00:32:33,950
scientific concepts you know when you

720
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:35,780
start talking about quads and levels and

721
00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:37,730
things like this but basically the idea

722
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:40,190
the theory that was given to all of

723
00:32:44,410 --> 00:32:42,650
these various people who looked into it

724
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:44,420
and who approached by Department of

725
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:46,610
Defense people so that yes it was

726
00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:49,190
holographic but he had this sort of

727
00:32:55,090 --> 00:32:52,190
connection with the physical reality in

728
00:32:57,970 --> 00:32:55,100
other words you could be sort of given

729
00:33:00,700 --> 00:32:57,980
an image and he would actually have some

730
00:33:02,830 --> 00:33:00,710
sense of physicality to it as well it

731
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:02,840
wouldn't just be an energy would almost

732
00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:05,510
feel something that you could feel now

733
00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:07,820
some people might say well that could be

734
00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:10,070
disinformation as a way to explain that

735
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:12,230
you know to give an alternative theory

736
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:14,870
and say well he really was aliens you

737
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:17,210
know so you have to be very careful and

738
00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:18,710
particularly you have to be very careful

739
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:20,870
when you're dealing with whistleblowers

740
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:22,910
because you don't know you know what

741
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:25,970
their agenda really is but what I would

742
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:28,970
say you know is that the people in the

743
00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:31,010
DoD who were willing to say something

744
00:33:35,950 --> 00:33:33,590
and in some cases you know the people

745
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:35,960
are told never went public and I left

746
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:38,120
about the book because that they asked

747
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:41,840
me to but there's no doubt that from the

748
00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:44,480
mid to late 80s and through the mid

749
00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:47,960
nineties a lot of people in ufology who

750
00:33:54,010 --> 00:33:50,150
were looking into Rendlesham were being

751
00:33:56,290 --> 00:33:54,020
given this holographic story now of

752
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:56,300
course you know the big question is well

753
00:34:01,090 --> 00:33:59,120
is it true or is it created to hide the

754
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:01,100
fact that aliens really did land you

755
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:04,100
know and if it was just that you know

756
00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:06,770
I'd say well you know it could be but

757
00:34:11,830 --> 00:34:08,960
when you add the fact that we know there

758
00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:11,840
was important components we know that

759
00:34:17,139 --> 00:34:14,540
what Colonel Holt reported seeing sounds

760
00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:17,149
eerily like what was being tested at

761
00:34:21,700 --> 00:34:19,310
Edgewood you know you put all those

762
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:21,710
different aspects together then I think

763
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:24,530
it still sort of pushes it down the sea

764
00:34:29,830 --> 00:34:26,690
could experiment angle absolutely

765
00:34:32,169 --> 00:34:29,840
there's another aspect of this and I was

766
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:32,179
really interested to hear about this in

767
00:34:37,210 --> 00:34:34,310
the book you bring up a guy named Ralph

768
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:37,220
noise now I recently interviewed Kevin

769
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:39,679
day the radar operator during the

770
00:34:46,390 --> 00:34:43,310
tic-tac UFO event and back in I think it

771
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:46,400
was 2009 he wrote a fictional book about

772
00:34:50,890 --> 00:34:49,130
the tic-tac event just to get it out

773
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:50,900
there and like this is what I

774
00:34:56,919 --> 00:34:53,270
experienced and make of it what you will

775
00:34:59,980 --> 00:34:56,929
but in a fictional context and now I see

776
00:35:02,860 --> 00:34:59,990
this almost play out identical to

777
00:35:04,990 --> 00:35:02,870
something you found with this guy Ralph

778
00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:05,000
in terms of something he wrote would you

779
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:06,710
mind maybe running us through a little

780
00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:08,210
bit of this and what his book might

781
00:35:13,890 --> 00:35:11,240
represent yeah sure well the guy you're

782
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:13,900
talking about is ralph noise which is n

783
00:35:20,650 --> 00:35:17,590
iyes and he was someone who had a high

784
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:20,660
level in the British Air Ministry as it

785
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:22,880
was called back in the 50s and 60s and

786
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:25,760
he continued on in the 70s when he was

787
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:27,920
became known as the Ministry of Defence

788
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:32,270
and when he he did a private interest in

789
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:34,730
UFOs and he was actually involved in a

790
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:36,650
few investigations in the fifties and

791
00:35:41,860 --> 00:35:38,690
sixties of UFOs but he's interestingly

792
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:41,870
off he said he never saw anything that

793
00:35:46,090 --> 00:35:43,730
was you would call like an alien

794
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:46,100
spacecraft and he actually described how

795
00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:48,890
some British pilots had taken a gun

796
00:35:53,350 --> 00:35:51,560
camera film of sort of strange balls of

797
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:53,360
light which again kind of sounds like

798
00:35:59,380 --> 00:35:55,850
ball lightning and things like that but

799
00:36:02,230 --> 00:35:59,390
in 1995 when he was now retired ralph

800
00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:02,240
noise wrote a novel called a secret

801
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:05,840
property and a secret property is a sort

802
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:08,210
of a thinly veiled story of what

803
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:09,890
happened at Rendlesham forest

804
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:13,520
for example Colonel halt in tow in

805
00:36:19,870 --> 00:36:17,030
Ralph's noisy book is Colonel Hoyt and

806
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:19,880
the story's best basically the same a

807
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:22,400
UFO comes down in an area of woodland

808
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:25,310
etc etcetera so in other words you know

809
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:28,310
the story that Ralph's noise told was

810
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:31,490
almost sort of you know paralleling what

811
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:34,010
happened at Rendlesham apart from one

812
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:37,370
intriguing thing and that is that the

813
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:38,330
imagery

814
00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:40,730
that the the guy is in the nut in his

815
00:36:48,910 --> 00:36:45,350
novel you know vang see imagery of UFOs

816
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:48,920
and strange things in the woods but it's

817
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:52,610
sort of like a top-secret program again

818
00:36:58,060 --> 00:36:54,880
sort of involving visions and

819
00:37:01,000 --> 00:36:58,070
hallucinations and again it's being done

820
00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:01,010
to determine you know the effects on the

821
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:04,670
on the military personnel and when you

822
00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:07,250
put all of those pieces those segments

823
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:09,950
together you know you've got a guy who

824
00:37:14,110 --> 00:37:12,470
actually did work on a UFO program for

825
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:14,120
the British Ministry of Defense in the

826
00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:18,290
50s and 60s and also he wrote this novel

827
00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:20,870
which almost identical to what happened

828
00:37:27,310 --> 00:37:23,950
in Rendlesham apart from the fact the

829
00:37:30,820 --> 00:37:27,320
imagery you know the so-called craft was

830
00:37:33,790 --> 00:37:30,830
provoked by visions by imagery and by

831
00:37:35,350 --> 00:37:33,800
like a superior technology which the the

832
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:35,360
government is trying to get its grips

833
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:38,210
around and I think and a lot of

834
00:37:43,390 --> 00:37:40,910
researchers think with hindsight after

835
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:43,400
they read them at the the novel is that

836
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:46,090
Ralph's noise knew exactly what happened

837
00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:49,070
Rendlesham forest but because you know

838
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:51,590
it was an old man he was on a military

839
00:37:57,220 --> 00:37:53,870
pension he didn't want to go too far you

840
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:57,230
know and come out in the world of fact

841
00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:00,320
as a whistleblower so he chose to tell

842
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:03,020
what he actually knew in the form of a

843
00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:06,050
novel in terms of fiction and I think

844
00:38:11,650 --> 00:38:09,080
you know as I said pointed out in the in

845
00:38:14,170 --> 00:38:11,660
the book in my book I think you know if

846
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:14,180
we ever do get the full story I think

847
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:16,490
we'll say that Ralph's noise is one of

848
00:38:21,570 --> 00:38:19,370
the key players in knowing what really

849
00:38:24,130 --> 00:38:21,580
happened at Rendlesham forest

850
00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:24,140
interesting yeah I mean welcome to

851
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:25,990
ufology right Nick I mean it's always

852
00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:28,940
fiction with a little truth somewhere in

853
00:38:33,070 --> 00:38:31,070
the middle well in terms of let's go

854
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:33,080
back to the witnesses for a moment now I

855
00:38:37,090 --> 00:38:35,450
know you've spoken personally to John

856
00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:37,100
Burroughs who a lot of our listeners

857
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:40,040
know receiving medical treatment from

858
00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:42,800
this event from the VA recently and then

859
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:44,540
you have on the flip side you have Jim

860
00:38:48,220 --> 00:38:46,730
Penniston another person who claimed to

861
00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:48,230
have had a close encounter with the

862
00:38:51,250 --> 00:38:50,630
object itself and they're they're on

863
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:51,260
very

864
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:53,450
different paths when it comes to what

865
00:38:57,790 --> 00:38:56,210
happened out there but um have either of

866
00:38:59,710 --> 00:38:57,800
these guys reached out to you and given

867
00:39:04,330 --> 00:38:59,720
their opinions on what you brought

868
00:39:07,570 --> 00:39:04,340
forward here well yeah Jim has spoken

869
00:39:10,060 --> 00:39:07,580
quite you know wide open and you know

870
00:39:11,830 --> 00:39:10,070
said he does not you know go with

871
00:39:15,070 --> 00:39:11,840
anything pretty much that I've said and

872
00:39:16,750 --> 00:39:15,080
I understand that because you know he

873
00:39:18,910 --> 00:39:16,760
was one of the guys in the in the woods

874
00:39:22,570 --> 00:39:18,920
in December 1980

875
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:22,580
you know December 1980 I was still a kid

876
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:25,520
at school well I wasn't even college you

877
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:27,650
know or University Oak Hill at school

878
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,050
because the U K equivalent to the high

879
00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:32,960
school and so I wasn't there at the time

880
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:34,820
being there many times since but I mean

881
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:36,290
that's not the same as being there in

882
00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:40,010
December 1980 and so you know when what

883
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:42,560
I've said in the book about John burrows

884
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:45,710
Jim Penniston all the other guys I don't

885
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:48,770
believe any of them at all have lied I

886
00:39:54,430 --> 00:39:52,400
don't believe any of them exaggerated I

887
00:39:57,010 --> 00:39:54,440
don't believe any of them have a

888
00:39:59,980 --> 00:39:57,020
sinister agenda or anything like that at

889
00:40:02,850 --> 00:39:59,990
all but what I do think is that if

890
00:40:07,450 --> 00:40:02,860
you're placed in a situation where

891
00:40:09,790 --> 00:40:07,460
you're faced with incredible technology

892
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:09,800
which looks out of this world but

893
00:40:15,460 --> 00:40:12,050
actually isn't such as such as for

894
00:40:16,450 --> 00:40:15,470
example weaponized and control ball

895
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:16,460
lightning

896
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:18,800
you've got mind altering technology

897
00:40:24,370 --> 00:40:21,920
you've got sophisticated holograms when

898
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:24,380
you put all that together what you see

899
00:40:30,070 --> 00:40:27,110
is what you remember and what you

900
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:30,080
remember is what you see but when you

901
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:32,690
put all of those other categories into

902
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:37,250
it what I take the view is that can you

903
00:40:44,890 --> 00:40:41,690
actually rely on your own imagery can

904
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:44,900
you rely on your own memories when you

905
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:47,570
will potentially messed around with I

906
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,630
mean for example with Jim I mean by his

907
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:52,640
own admission you know that the military

908
00:40:58,180 --> 00:40:55,610
you sodium pentathol on him you know the

909
00:41:00,730 --> 00:40:58,190
so-called truth drug and you know this

910
00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:00,740
angle of drugs goes through the whole

911
00:41:04,930 --> 00:41:03,620
story you know whether it's like sodium

912
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:04,940
pentathol in

913
00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:06,850
to try and find out for example

914
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:11,480
Penniston recalled in his mind and then

915
00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:13,130
you've got the port and down connection

916
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:15,440
you've got the fact that port and has a

917
00:41:20,410 --> 00:41:17,210
kind of connection back in the Cold War

918
00:41:21,820 --> 00:41:20,420
with port and down that's the way I look

919
00:41:24,010 --> 00:41:21,830
at it I think all the guys are

920
00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:24,020
completely honest they reported it as

921
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:27,260
they saw it but when you're dealing with

922
00:41:33,850 --> 00:41:30,410
all this mold or mind-altering phenomena

923
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:33,860
and you know highly advanced technology

924
00:41:40,510 --> 00:41:37,250
can you actually fully rely on your own

925
00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:40,520
memories you know right yeah and um well

926
00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:42,230
you mentioned the word honesty Nick and

927
00:41:47,260 --> 00:41:45,470
whether you like him or not he's forever

928
00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:47,270
an attached to this event and that's

929
00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:50,150
Larry Warren do you think any of your

930
00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:52,820
alternate theories make any of what he

931
00:41:58,660 --> 00:41:55,910
has said more reasonable or possible or

932
00:42:01,390 --> 00:41:58,670
do you dismiss this guy right like a lot

933
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:01,400
of people have yeah where does he play

934
00:42:11,470 --> 00:42:03,770
into this entire alternate explanation

935
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:13,940
what's up guys Ryan here and I'm just

936
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:15,690
dropping in to tell you about a new

937
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:17,490
podcast I'm listening to

938
00:42:24,020 --> 00:42:20,880
it's called crashed in Roswell survivors

939
00:42:27,260 --> 00:42:24,030
in a misunderstood city the podcast

940
00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:27,270
centers on Kyle Pollak a lifelong local

941
00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:30,390
of the infamous Roswell New Mexico Kyle

942
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:32,670
takes us on an investigative journalists

943
00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:35,400
journey to uncover secrets from his

944
00:42:42,650 --> 00:42:38,670
family history and ties to the events of

945
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:42,660
the Roswell UFO crash of 1947 what

946
00:42:47,390 --> 00:42:44,640
starts out as a show about family and

947
00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:47,400
small-town America quickly turns into

948
00:42:53,870 --> 00:42:50,460
something much more mysterious and wild

949
00:42:56,180 --> 00:42:53,880
when Kyle meets John an old friend of

950
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:56,190
his grandfather's and a man with a

951
00:43:02,510 --> 00:42:59,760
secretive past the show also explores

952
00:43:04,670 --> 00:43:02,520
the effects the UFO crash has had on the

953
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:04,680
small community over the past seventy

954
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:07,530
plus years and how it's changed the very

955
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:11,190
culture of Roswell forever if you're

956
00:43:16,070 --> 00:43:14,160
interested in UFOs conspiracies or want

957
00:43:19,339 --> 00:43:16,080
to know what Roswell is really about

958
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:19,349
you've got to listen to this show the

959
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:21,570
first season is currently underway in

960
00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:24,290
new episodes release every Thursday

961
00:43:31,099 --> 00:43:27,390
crashed in Roswell is streaming now on

962
00:43:34,579 --> 00:43:31,109
Apple podcasts Google podcasts overcast

963
00:43:39,130 --> 00:43:34,589
or you can learn more and stream over at

964
00:43:47,339 --> 00:43:43,400
[Music]

965
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:47,349
yeah well I should first thing I should

966
00:43:55,170 --> 00:43:51,570
say that you know I've known Larry since

967
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:55,180
1997 and this was when there with the

968
00:43:59,820 --> 00:43:56,710
book that he wrote with Peter Robbins

969
00:44:03,660 --> 00:43:59,830
left at a skate that book came out in

970
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:03,670
the summer of 1997 Peter and Larry's

971
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:06,910
publisher had essentially sent them on

972
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:09,460
like a tour to promote the book that's

973
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:11,950
what you have to do you know and they

974
00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:15,670
came over to the UK and I spent probably

975
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:18,790
about I think I'm guessing there but I

976
00:44:24,990 --> 00:44:20,410
think it was this bear in mind this was

977
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:25,000
23 years ago but I think I spent maybe

978
00:44:31,050 --> 00:44:28,170
about 13 or 14 days with them I think

979
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:31,060
traveling up and down the UK and while

980
00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:33,609
they gave their lectures etc etc you

981
00:44:38,820 --> 00:44:36,160
know it stayed like that you know Larry

982
00:44:40,410 --> 00:44:38,830
became one of the key figures in the

983
00:44:43,859 --> 00:44:40,420
case and you know that did not change

984
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:43,869
until just a couple years ago when

985
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:45,790
there's a lot of controversy put out

986
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:49,530
there about Larry and Peter eventually

987
00:44:55,230 --> 00:44:52,330
demanded that the book be polled you

988
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:55,240
know because he didn't have any sense of

989
00:44:59,040 --> 00:44:57,130
you know the contents of the book you

990
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:59,050
know was reliable that's how he saw it

991
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:01,599
you know so in that sense you know

992
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:04,210
you've got people who who believe Larry

993
00:45:09,810 --> 00:45:06,160
story or people don't believe Larry

994
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:09,820
story and then there's this sort of gray

995
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:13,420
area in between and I call it a gray

996
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:16,390
area because one of the interesting

997
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:19,210
things is that although over the years

998
00:45:24,690 --> 00:45:21,970
Colonel holt Charles Holt didn't really

999
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:24,700
have you know too much time for Larry he

1000
00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:28,510
very often would sort of say that even

1001
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:30,550
though you know he didn't sort of go

1002
00:45:36,089 --> 00:45:33,609
with Larry's approach Holt you know did

1003
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:36,099
say on a number of occasions that he

1004
00:45:40,530 --> 00:45:38,560
felt that Larry whatever the truth was

1005
00:45:42,510 --> 00:45:40,540
had been he had his mind in some way

1006
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:42,520
meddled with and that was almost sort of

1007
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:45,310
the you know the exact words well the

1008
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:46,800
reason why I mention this is because

1009
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:50,130
early last year I spoke at a conference

1010
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:51,310
down

1011
00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:53,470
edinburg texas it's called the out to

1012
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:55,270
the world conference it's on every year

1013
00:46:00,210 --> 00:45:58,210
and not only was i one of the speakers

1014
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:00,220
down there but Charles Holt was as well

1015
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:02,050
and we had a good time you know he's a

1016
00:46:06,750 --> 00:46:04,210
nice guy laid-back and you know chatty

1017
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:06,760
and funny and we got talking about

1018
00:46:11,790 --> 00:46:09,070
various aspects of Rendlesham because we

1019
00:46:13,590 --> 00:46:11,800
were there from like B Friday or

1020
00:46:15,330 --> 00:46:13,600
Thursday possibly right through to the

1021
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:15,340
Monday so we were all there sort of

1022
00:46:19,950 --> 00:46:17,200
hanging out together for about four days

1023
00:46:22,590 --> 00:46:19,960
and I asked him you know what he thought

1024
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:22,600
about they will grow in controversy

1025
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:26,890
surrounding Larry and he basically said

1026
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:28,690
the same thing he said that you know

1027
00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:30,690
it's yet it's really controversial

1028
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:33,880
etcetera etcetera but he did say to me

1029
00:46:39,870 --> 00:46:37,750
then again you know that he felt that in

1030
00:46:42,690 --> 00:46:39,880
some way regardless of what people

1031
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:42,700
thought of you know his views and what

1032
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:45,250
Larry had said he still felt that Larry

1033
00:46:50,010 --> 00:46:47,710
had had his mind messed with so I find

1034
00:46:52,890 --> 00:46:50,020
that interesting that you know you've

1035
00:46:56,130 --> 00:46:52,900
got a lot of people in you ufology who

1036
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:56,140
don't like Larry and yes just a year ago

1037
00:47:00,750 --> 00:46:58,090
when I spoke to or just a little bit

1038
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:00,760
more than a year ago when I met hall for

1039
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:03,610
the first time down in Edinburg Texas he

1040
00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:05,050
was still saying that well you know

1041
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:07,420
there is still something I think that

1042
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:10,210
was sort of where Larry was played with

1043
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:13,090
so you know and and Holt was one of the

1044
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:16,150
guys in the woods you know so I think

1045
00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:20,770
the whole story he sort of has not been

1046
00:47:26,430 --> 00:47:23,260
unraveled you know I think they're still

1047
00:47:29,460 --> 00:47:26,440
way more you know in relation to - Larry

1048
00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:29,470
story right and you know a lot of the I

1049
00:47:35,130 --> 00:47:32,560
would say discounting of Larry's story

1050
00:47:37,290 --> 00:47:35,140
was always he was the only one to say

1051
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:37,300
that he saw alien beings in the forest

1052
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:39,070
and I mean you look at the cover of your

1053
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:41,410
book and boom there it is right there

1054
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:44,310
and you know it is possible that either

1055
00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:47,680
hallucinogens or holograms or something

1056
00:47:53,310 --> 00:47:50,440
had to do with that and you know Larry

1057
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:53,320
did see what he thinks he saw so I mean

1058
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:56,170
yeah he is a very pretentious person

1059
00:48:01,680 --> 00:47:58,210
when it comes to this yeah it would make

1060
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:01,690
sense I think the big problem with not

1061
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:05,040
with Larry's story but the way it's been

1062
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:08,130
by ufology it's very much black and

1063
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:10,140
white you've got people who believe him

1064
00:48:16,750 --> 00:48:13,440
and people who disbelieve him but then

1065
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:16,760
you've got this hazy thing we're even

1066
00:48:23,150 --> 00:48:19,770
Colonel Holt said he felt something had

1067
00:48:27,050 --> 00:48:23,160
been done to Larry so for me we need to

1068
00:48:29,810 --> 00:48:27,060
be focusing more on that middle ground

1069
00:48:32,210 --> 00:48:29,820
you know this hazy weird middle ground

1070
00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:32,220
rather than just saying I think this is

1071
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:34,680
garbage and somebody says no he's a good

1072
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:38,610
guy you know it's I think the the

1073
00:48:45,650 --> 00:48:42,180
answers to Larry and easy vollentine

1074
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:45,660
Rendlesham are in that hazy gray area

1075
00:48:50,990 --> 00:48:49,050
the Holts kind of vaguely touched on you

1076
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:51,000
knew yeah yeah I would have to agree

1077
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:52,920
it's always somewhere in between and I

1078
00:48:58,070 --> 00:48:54,810
mean someone who really looked at that

1079
00:49:00,500 --> 00:48:58,080
Nick was a Nick Pope you know former UFO

1080
00:49:02,090 --> 00:49:00,510
desk person for the mo D he brought

1081
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:02,100
something interesting to the public not

1082
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:03,810
too long ago and that was project

1083
00:49:08,570 --> 00:49:06,090
condign you know basically the UK

1084
00:49:10,610 --> 00:49:08,580
equivalent of I guess sort of like a tip

1085
00:49:13,310 --> 00:49:10,620
here in the United States where the

1086
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:13,320
British defense intelligence agency you

1087
00:49:18,740 --> 00:49:16,530
know for 97 to 2000 they looked into UFO

1088
00:49:21,020 --> 00:49:18,750
reports and if I'm not mistaken I think

1089
00:49:23,330 --> 00:49:21,030
they went back to Rendlesham at one

1090
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:23,340
point in project condign so what do you

1091
00:49:28,370 --> 00:49:26,640
think this this your alternate theories

1092
00:49:30,290 --> 00:49:28,380
does this play into anything that Nick

1093
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:30,300
Pope is brought forward about the case

1094
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:31,890
or have you spoken to him about what he

1095
00:49:37,220 --> 00:49:34,710
feels after doing all this research into

1096
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:37,230
Rendlesham where does he lay when it

1097
00:49:41,330 --> 00:49:38,490
comes to these theories he brought

1098
00:49:44,930 --> 00:49:41,340
forward well I mean the whole condign

1099
00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:44,940
thing is important this was like a top

1100
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:48,300
secret UFO program that began in the

1101
00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:52,290
late 1990s and it was essentially

1102
00:49:59,000 --> 00:49:56,310
looking at the UFO phenomenon and to a

1103
00:50:02,630 --> 00:49:59,010
significant degree again to see how it

1104
00:50:05,350 --> 00:50:02,640
could be utilized you know in the in the

1105
00:50:08,450 --> 00:50:05,360
formal weapon you know and a lot of it

1106
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:08,460
revolved around like plasmas and ball

1107
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:10,260
lightning and things like this

1108
00:50:15,290 --> 00:50:11,910
it was actually although it's called

1109
00:50:18,850 --> 00:50:15,300
project condign the official title was

1110
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:18,860
unidentified aerial phenomena in the UK

1111
00:50:23,740 --> 00:50:20,690
defense region you know it's like a

1112
00:50:26,260 --> 00:50:23,750
typical kind of a government program

1113
00:50:28,570 --> 00:50:26,270
title and I think sometimes that's done

1114
00:50:30,850 --> 00:50:28,580
you know because it's such a weird and

1115
00:50:33,310 --> 00:50:30,860
strange title that he gets overlooked

1116
00:50:36,910 --> 00:50:33,320
which is making sort of get away with

1117
00:50:38,890 --> 00:50:36,920
not putting the word UFO in the document

1118
00:50:41,830 --> 00:50:38,900
you know it keeps it away from the media

1119
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:41,840
and people like me and you but the

1120
00:50:47,860 --> 00:50:44,930
program itself was run by a guy named

1121
00:50:50,650 --> 00:50:47,870
Ron Hado he spent a lot of his life in

1122
00:50:53,650 --> 00:50:50,660
the Royal Air Force he worked on radar

1123
00:50:57,490 --> 00:50:53,660
guided weapons electronic warfare and

1124
00:50:59,620 --> 00:50:57,500
all sorts of different things and you

1125
00:51:03,190 --> 00:50:59,630
know he was somebody who was really in

1126
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:03,200
the prime place to to look into this now

1127
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:06,790
one of the angles of these plasmas that

1128
00:51:12,190 --> 00:51:09,770
condi in the condign project looked into

1129
00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:12,200
was to see how you know it could

1130
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:14,270
actually be affected you know the human

1131
00:51:18,180 --> 00:51:15,890
mind could be affected by some of these

1132
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:18,190
plasmas that the mo D was really

1133
00:51:23,650 --> 00:51:21,050
interested in now I'll just tell you

1134
00:51:26,650 --> 00:51:23,660
this is a quote from Nick Pope in

1135
00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:26,660
relation to the condign report and Nick

1136
00:51:30,550 --> 00:51:28,430
said and then quoted him directly here

1137
00:51:32,590 --> 00:51:30,560
one of the areas that will be most

1138
00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:32,600
contentious relates to what the report

1139
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:36,190
refers to as plasma related fields

1140
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:38,270
electronically charged atmospheric

1141
00:51:42,910 --> 00:51:40,490
plasmas accredited with having given

1142
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:42,920
rise to some of the reports a vast

1143
00:51:47,410 --> 00:51:45,110
triangular-shaped craft while the

1144
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:47,420
interaction of such plasma fields with

1145
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:50,510
the temporal lobes in the brain is cited

1146
00:51:55,210 --> 00:51:52,910
as another reason now this way it gets

1147
00:51:57,850 --> 00:51:55,220
important another reason why people

1148
00:52:01,300 --> 00:51:57,860
might feel they were having a strange

1149
00:52:03,460 --> 00:52:01,310
experience so you know even Nick was

1150
00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:03,470
talking about strange experiences and

1151
00:52:09,580 --> 00:52:06,920
plasmas when the con dying report came

1152
00:52:14,140 --> 00:52:09,590
out those were his exact words you know

1153
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:14,150
so I think condign was sort of like an

1154
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:16,940
offshoot of whatever it was happening in

1155
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:20,810
1980 that the maybe the mo D you know

1156
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:22,760
didn't fully get a hold on it properly

1157
00:52:28,510 --> 00:52:25,760
in the early eighties and brought it

1158
00:52:30,910 --> 00:52:28,520
back again in the 90s and looking at

1159
00:52:32,059 --> 00:52:30,920
plasmas and and like Nick Pope himself

1160
00:52:34,969 --> 00:52:32,069
said you know

1161
00:52:38,359 --> 00:52:34,979
as to you know it can cause people to

1162
00:52:40,670 --> 00:52:38,369
have a bizarre experience but he may not

1163
00:52:42,259 --> 00:52:40,680
have been a real experience so so even

1164
00:52:44,329 --> 00:52:42,269
Nick you know didn't deny it

1165
00:52:46,699 --> 00:52:44,339
I mean I actually said that himself

1166
00:52:48,890 --> 00:52:46,709
right right and I think you know the

1167
00:52:50,209 --> 00:52:48,900
important thing to remember too is you

1168
00:52:52,430 --> 00:52:50,219
know while condign might have looked

1169
00:52:54,979 --> 00:52:52,440
back at Rendlesham all the files on this

1170
00:52:57,229 --> 00:52:54,989
case were actually never found when

1171
00:52:59,630 --> 00:52:57,239
people tried to get you know Freedom of

1172
00:53:02,509 --> 00:52:59,640
Information Act requests filed on this

1173
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:02,519
case they just mysteriously disappeared

1174
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:04,559
so I mean you've got that whole angle to

1175
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:06,569
it all as well yeah you're right and I

1176
00:53:11,959 --> 00:53:09,359
mean that issue of missing files runs

1177
00:53:14,059 --> 00:53:11,969
through the story I mean it's not just

1178
00:53:17,299 --> 00:53:14,069
in relation to those missing files

1179
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:17,309
he'll Norton Admiral Admiral Hill no no

1180
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:19,529
I mentioned earlier you know he was

1181
00:53:24,259 --> 00:53:22,079
someone who pushed for the port and down

1182
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:24,269
files now what's interesting the

1183
00:53:29,209 --> 00:53:26,910
government never actually said there was

1184
00:53:31,309 --> 00:53:29,219
no connection between what happened at

1185
00:53:33,739 --> 00:53:31,319
Randall's important down what they

1186
00:53:35,539 --> 00:53:33,749
actually said was that we went looking

1187
00:53:37,009 --> 00:53:35,549
and we couldn't find the files that's

1188
00:53:39,079 --> 00:53:37,019
what the government said so in other

1189
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:39,089
words when the government says we went

1190
00:53:44,059 --> 00:53:41,729
looking we didn't find the files doesn't

1191
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:44,069
mean they actually didn't exist you know

1192
00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:45,650
that government agencies are very

1193
00:53:51,799 --> 00:53:48,630
careful to word things like that in case

1194
00:53:54,910 --> 00:53:51,809
it comes back to to hit them and another

1195
00:53:57,529 --> 00:53:54,920
example just about five miles from

1196
00:54:00,140 --> 00:53:57,539
Rendlesham forest there's a prison

1197
00:54:02,209 --> 00:54:00,150
called Hollis Lee Bay and it's for young

1198
00:54:03,859 --> 00:54:02,219
offenders you know like kids who stole

1199
00:54:06,229 --> 00:54:03,869
in the car or something like that

1200
00:54:08,509 --> 00:54:06,239
and there were rumors that when they

1201
00:54:10,819 --> 00:54:08,519
were releasing the hallucinogenics into

1202
00:54:13,309 --> 00:54:10,829
the woods there was some concern that if

1203
00:54:16,370 --> 00:54:13,319
the weather changed the the wind changed

1204
00:54:18,589 --> 00:54:16,380
the aerosol based hallucinogenics could

1205
00:54:21,079 --> 00:54:18,599
actually head towards through the forest

1206
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:21,089
and head towards Hollis leave a prison

1207
00:54:27,579 --> 00:54:24,420
and there were rumors that the the

1208
00:54:30,859 --> 00:54:27,589
prison for all these young kids would be

1209
00:54:33,559 --> 00:54:30,869
affected if you like and so there was

1210
00:54:36,019 --> 00:54:33,569
this plan if it was needed to evacuate

1211
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:36,029
the prison and he'll Norton actually

1212
00:54:40,339 --> 00:54:38,160
heard through some of his sources about

1213
00:54:43,370 --> 00:54:40,349
that story this prison angle and the

1214
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:43,380
evacuations and again the government

1215
00:54:47,820 --> 00:54:45,370
didn't deny this happened what

1216
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:47,830
they said was they couldn't find the

1217
00:54:53,970 --> 00:54:50,710
prison governor's Journal from that

1218
00:54:56,910 --> 00:54:53,980
particular period so again he gave them

1219
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:56,920
sort of an out but again he demonstrates

1220
00:55:04,410 --> 00:55:00,400
the this interesting angle of Rendlesham

1221
00:55:06,450 --> 00:55:04,420
namely documentation going missing you

1222
00:55:09,330 --> 00:55:06,460
know and we see that throughout the

1223
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:09,340
entire story right plausible deniability

1224
00:55:14,220 --> 00:55:12,490
all the way that's great Nick well I'm

1225
00:55:16,890 --> 00:55:14,230
gonna move to a few listener questions

1226
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:16,900
here with you Michael on Facebook asks

1227
00:55:21,540 --> 00:55:19,090
given your research relating to the

1228
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:21,550
potential non extraterrestrial cause of

1229
00:55:25,950 --> 00:55:24,310
Roswell and Rendlesham to cases you've

1230
00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:25,960
covered would you say that the

1231
00:55:31,230 --> 00:55:28,390
government or military benefit from UFO

1232
00:55:33,930 --> 00:55:31,240
mythology over all to keep secrets and

1233
00:55:36,090 --> 00:55:33,940
if so in your opinion can disclosure

1234
00:55:38,190 --> 00:55:36,100
from the government actually ever be

1235
00:55:41,550 --> 00:55:38,200
trusted well that's actually a very good

1236
00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:41,560
question because in my times at least

1237
00:55:46,020 --> 00:55:43,510
you know when you look at Randall Jim

1238
00:55:49,050 --> 00:55:46,030
and I also wrote a book on Roswell

1239
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:49,060
both which I suggest he were classified

1240
00:55:56,370 --> 00:55:51,730
military programs but which was sort of

1241
00:55:58,110 --> 00:55:56,380
hidden under the umbrella of a UFO angle

1242
00:56:01,710 --> 00:55:58,120
but yeah I mean that that's a perfect

1243
00:56:04,350 --> 00:56:01,720
question because we are in a situation I

1244
00:56:07,590 --> 00:56:04,360
think where we cannot trust which are

1245
00:56:09,740 --> 00:56:07,600
the real UFO cases and which ones are

1246
00:56:12,930 --> 00:56:09,750
the fabricated ones for things like

1247
00:56:15,090 --> 00:56:12,940
psychological warfare and character

1248
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:15,100
intelligence and disinformation programs

1249
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:16,960
you know the more and more our

1250
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:19,810
technologies develop the more more

1251
00:56:25,950 --> 00:56:22,510
difficult it becomes to differentiate

1252
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:25,960
between a real UFO phenomenon and one

1253
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:28,330
that isn't real and I think you know the

1254
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:30,730
in relation to the question as well this

1255
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:33,250
issue of disclosure that's a very good

1256
00:56:38,130 --> 00:56:35,310
point most people think either

1257
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:38,140
disclosures coming or it's not coming

1258
00:56:43,470 --> 00:56:41,110
but in relation to the question I mean

1259
00:56:45,620 --> 00:56:43,480
you got to think important point the

1260
00:56:49,470 --> 00:56:45,630
idea that can we actually trust

1261
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:49,480
disclosure if and when he comes or is

1262
00:56:54,990 --> 00:56:51,760
disclosure going to be something where

1263
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:55,000
you know well we've seen UFOs in the

1264
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:57,250
skies and we we think they're dangerous

1265
00:57:02,620 --> 00:56:58,490
at better

1266
00:57:05,410 --> 00:57:02,630
and could easily be sort of used as a

1267
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:05,420
means to take away you know more privacy

1268
00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:09,890
and etc etc in other words yes UFOs are

1269
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:12,380
a threat and so you know we need to do

1270
00:57:16,750 --> 00:57:14,450
this and we need to do that to control

1271
00:57:18,910 --> 00:57:16,760
you even more you know I think that that

1272
00:57:23,020 --> 00:57:18,920
is one of the disturbing aspects is that

1273
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:23,030
the UFO subject could be used as a means

1274
00:57:29,770 --> 00:57:26,000
to essentially be by bit you know sort

1275
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:29,780
of affect people's you know everyday

1276
00:57:36,099 --> 00:57:32,720
liberty notice me and we would not know

1277
00:57:38,740 --> 00:57:36,109
you know for sure if it was a real UFO

1278
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:38,750
event that inspired this to happen you

1279
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:42,050
know initiating those new laws or was it

1280
00:57:47,890 --> 00:57:44,050
you know something that was fabricated

1281
00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:47,900
versus or was it aliens and in today's

1282
00:57:52,180 --> 00:57:49,280
world we're looking at things like

1283
00:57:54,460 --> 00:57:52,190
Rendlesham I honestly cannot say for

1284
00:57:56,740 --> 00:57:54,470
sure it's some of these high-profile

1285
00:57:59,680 --> 00:57:56,750
cases that we all know about I cannot

1286
00:58:01,089 --> 00:57:59,690
say for sure if they are real well

1287
00:58:03,820 --> 00:58:01,099
they're all they're real in one sense

1288
00:58:07,420 --> 00:58:03,830
regardless but I mean are they UFO

1289
00:58:09,550 --> 00:58:07,430
events or are they the fabricated UFO

1290
00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:09,560
events and that's where it kind of gets

1291
00:58:15,790 --> 00:58:12,710
into a disturbing realm of manipulation

1292
00:58:18,460 --> 00:58:15,800
and you know sort of having an effect on

1293
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:18,470
the population as well right and then I

1294
00:58:22,540 --> 00:58:20,240
mean you look at the overall picture of

1295
00:58:24,790 --> 00:58:22,550
if any of the explanations you brought

1296
00:58:27,070 --> 00:58:24,800
forward are true and this was some sort

1297
00:58:29,770 --> 00:58:27,080
of top-secret experiment to what ends

1298
00:58:32,020 --> 00:58:29,780
and who's at the top kind of pulling the

1299
00:58:34,599 --> 00:58:32,030
strings down wording downward when it

1300
00:58:36,430 --> 00:58:34,609
comes to this and why so I think you're

1301
00:58:38,170 --> 00:58:36,440
right I think it is dark and disturbing

1302
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:38,180
I mean you look at things like the

1303
00:58:43,270 --> 00:58:40,450
Patriot Act here in America or

1304
00:58:45,370 --> 00:58:43,280
conspiracy theorists thinking that this

1305
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:45,380
global crisis we're dealing with is a

1306
00:58:50,020 --> 00:58:48,290
way to finally microchip everybody you

1307
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:50,030
know you have these really far-out their

1308
00:58:55,810 --> 00:58:52,010
conspiracy theories about our government

1309
00:58:58,839 --> 00:58:55,820
using crisis or events as an opportunity

1310
00:59:00,640 --> 00:58:58,849
to get what they want out of it so is

1311
00:59:02,980 --> 00:59:00,650
this the same when it comes to certain

1312
00:59:05,859 --> 00:59:02,990
UFO events we'll we'll probably never

1313
00:59:07,570 --> 00:59:05,869
know well we we won't know unless you

1314
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:07,580
know somebody comes forward with hard

1315
00:59:10,740 --> 00:59:10,130
evidence and I mean regardless of what

1316
00:59:13,620 --> 00:59:10,750
happened at

1317
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:13,630
as well or the cash Landrum case which

1318
00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:16,140
is also a controversial one and

1319
00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:19,390
Rendlesham as well unless we get sort of

1320
00:59:25,590 --> 00:59:23,470
100 percent hard solid evidence as to

1321
00:59:27,660 --> 00:59:25,600
what happened I mean you're always gonna

1322
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:27,670
have people on different sides of the

1323
00:59:31,890 --> 00:59:29,890
coin so to speak each of what they

1324
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:31,900
believe happened to Randall shim or what

1325
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:33,250
I happened you know what they believe

1326
00:59:39,870 --> 00:59:36,970
happened to Roswell and so on so in that

1327
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:39,880
sense you know it is getting more and

1328
00:59:44,700 --> 00:59:42,490
more difficult and I mean the fact is we

1329
00:59:47,220 --> 00:59:44,710
are being sort of watched more and more

1330
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:47,230
I mean this whole issue you know sort of

1331
00:59:52,410 --> 00:59:49,330
people be microchipped there's one

1332
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:52,420
reason why I don't think we will ever be

1333
00:59:57,870 --> 00:59:55,570
microchipped and that's because we are

1334
01:00:01,500 --> 00:59:57,880
all we're all ready microchipped it's

1335
01:00:04,590 --> 01:00:01,510
called an iPhone you know you don't need

1336
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:04,600
to have a little device implanted under

1337
01:00:10,980 --> 01:00:07,210
your skin because you've actually got

1338
01:00:14,010 --> 01:00:10,990
this small device which happens to be in

1339
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:14,020
your pocket and you know for example

1340
01:00:19,830 --> 01:00:18,310
that phone may contain all your medical

1341
01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:19,840
information you know when you've got

1342
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:22,750
your next checkup or whatever it's got

1343
01:00:27,390 --> 01:00:25,090
information on for example when you're

1344
01:00:29,310 --> 01:00:27,400
gonna go for you know you ladies have

1345
01:00:31,410 --> 01:00:29,320
your oil change changing the card or

1346
01:00:34,140 --> 01:00:31,420
whatever you know and and just about

1347
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:34,150
anything like that all of that day - all

1348
01:00:38,820 --> 01:00:36,370
that information you know the the

1349
01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:38,830
holiday the vacation to the Bahamas that

1350
01:00:45,450 --> 01:00:41,200
you've just you just arranged you know

1351
01:00:47,970 --> 01:00:45,460
all that is on that phone so I think you

1352
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:47,980
I could have seen the days when we could

1353
01:00:53,010 --> 01:00:49,750
have been so many might have made an

1354
01:00:55,380 --> 01:00:53,020
argument for you know for microchips but

1355
01:00:58,740 --> 01:00:55,390
as I said we don't think about the fact

1356
01:01:00,930 --> 01:00:58,750
that we actually do have the equivalent

1357
01:01:02,910 --> 01:01:00,940
you know a microchip but it's the

1358
01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:02,920
equivalent of it and we'd most people

1359
01:01:08,910 --> 01:01:06,310
can't put the thing down so you know and

1360
01:01:10,770 --> 01:01:08,920
I mean also there's the fact that I'm

1361
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:10,780
anything you see just a track where you

1362
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:12,640
go in as well you know when you've got

1363
01:01:19,980 --> 01:01:16,960
you you phone with you so that really is

1364
01:01:23,430 --> 01:01:19,990
the perfect surveillance device you know

1365
01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:23,440
yeah and I think it's important to let

1366
01:01:26,099 --> 01:01:24,190
if we

1367
01:01:28,770 --> 01:01:26,109
go back to something like a tip this

1368
01:01:31,620 --> 01:01:28,780
aerial threat identification program

1369
01:01:33,329 --> 01:01:31,630
with the Department of Defense

1370
01:01:35,970 --> 01:01:33,339
Lewis Elizondo the former head of the

1371
01:01:39,059 --> 01:01:35,980
program has even said you know we

1372
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:39,069
weren't we could care less if these UFOs

1373
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:42,490
were aliens we were there to monitor if

1374
01:01:46,349 --> 01:01:43,930
there was a potential threat to our

1375
01:01:49,650 --> 01:01:46,359
skies and our national security so I

1376
01:01:51,359 --> 01:01:49,660
mean right there you've got a very clear

1377
01:01:54,359 --> 01:01:51,369
stance that even the program

1378
01:01:57,180 --> 01:01:54,369
investigating UFOs here in America the

1379
01:01:57,900 --> 01:01:57,190
secret program didn't care where they

1380
01:01:59,849 --> 01:01:57,910
came from

1381
01:02:02,160 --> 01:01:59,859
was it a threat and I think that's kind

1382
01:02:04,770 --> 01:02:02,170
of the angle that the this certain group

1383
01:02:07,260 --> 01:02:04,780
is taking now in terms of looking at

1384
01:02:08,730 --> 01:02:07,270
this phenomenon you know is this going

1385
01:02:11,099 --> 01:02:08,740
to be a threat to us how can we make our

1386
01:02:13,740 --> 01:02:11,109
military stronger to fight back if we

1387
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:13,750
ever have to so yeah it you're right

1388
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:16,810
there's so much politics and economics

1389
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:18,970
and beliefs that go into this

1390
01:02:24,569 --> 01:02:22,930
quote-unquote UFO phenomenon and it's

1391
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:24,579
hard to tell up from down left from

1392
01:02:28,260 --> 01:02:26,410
right but I mean if we don't ask new

1393
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:28,270
questions like you have we're just going

1394
01:02:33,059 --> 01:02:29,710
to be stuck in the same rut like we have

1395
01:02:35,550 --> 01:02:33,069
for 70 something years well you're right

1396
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:35,560
I mean the way I look at it is that you

1397
01:02:42,210 --> 01:02:38,290
know if I'm looking into a case my the

1398
01:02:43,890 --> 01:02:42,220
UFO case and I realize well hang on to

1399
01:02:45,569 --> 01:02:43,900
me there's something not right here and

1400
01:02:48,359 --> 01:02:45,579
I start you know going down a different

1401
01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:48,369
path and find out this and find out that

1402
01:02:53,220 --> 01:02:51,520
you know I mean I won't name names but

1403
01:02:54,210 --> 01:02:53,230
there are certain well-known figures in

1404
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:54,220
ufology

1405
01:02:59,819 --> 01:02:57,730
who will not rock the boat because

1406
01:03:01,829 --> 01:02:59,829
they're just worried they won't get

1407
01:03:03,450 --> 01:03:01,839
books for the next conference you know

1408
01:03:07,589 --> 01:03:03,460
for the next lecture

1409
01:03:10,410 --> 01:03:07,599
etc etcetera frankly I couldn't care

1410
01:03:12,180 --> 01:03:10,420
less you know who I tell it as I see

1411
01:03:14,370 --> 01:03:12,190
it's and if people like what I do and

1412
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:14,380
agree that's great and if people don't

1413
01:03:19,710 --> 01:03:16,810
agree with me I'm gonna lose no sleep

1414
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:19,720
over it you know it's that's how it goes

1415
01:03:25,319 --> 01:03:21,609
but I mean there's there are too many

1416
01:03:28,020 --> 01:03:25,329
people in ufology who are who just kiss

1417
01:03:30,359 --> 01:03:28,030
the ass of the person oh they think he's

1418
01:03:32,309 --> 01:03:30,369
going to get them up the UFO ladder so

1419
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:32,319
to speak and I don't really have no time

1420
01:03:37,620 --> 01:03:35,290
for that at all which is why I'm

1421
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:37,630
probably the first one to written a book

1422
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:39,910
Rendlesham saying that aliens didn't

1423
01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:43,210
land you know I can think of more than a

1424
01:03:47,130 --> 01:03:45,430
few who would not I would not just sort

1425
01:03:48,690 --> 01:03:47,140
of blowing my own trumpet so to speak

1426
01:03:50,940 --> 01:03:48,700
but I can tell you for sure that there's

1427
01:03:55,230 --> 01:03:50,950
certain people you follow gee who would

1428
01:03:56,940 --> 01:03:55,240
never write a an anti Rendlesham case in

1429
01:03:59,660 --> 01:03:56,950
terms of you know aliens versus

1430
01:04:02,609 --> 01:03:59,670
experiments because they'd be just too

1431
01:04:05,549 --> 01:04:02,619
fearful of what they you know the

1432
01:04:07,980 --> 01:04:05,559
outcome would be for their UFO career

1433
01:04:09,779 --> 01:04:07,990
but I mean that's all they that's the

1434
01:04:11,730 --> 01:04:09,789
only thing they've got to deal with and

1435
01:04:13,890 --> 01:04:11,740
worry about I mean it's pretty pathetic

1436
01:04:16,589 --> 01:04:13,900
really I mean you should go for the

1437
01:04:19,620 --> 01:04:16,599
answers regardless of what the answers

1438
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:19,630
are just look for the answer yeah there

1439
01:04:24,809 --> 01:04:22,690
is a huge difference between belief and

1440
01:04:27,180 --> 01:04:24,819
proof for a fact and I think you're

1441
01:04:28,380 --> 01:04:27,190
right belief often blinds a lot of

1442
01:04:30,180 --> 01:04:28,390
people when it comes to this stuff

1443
01:04:33,269 --> 01:04:30,190
especially when you bring something

1444
01:04:35,789 --> 01:04:33,279
forward like you have here well this one

1445
01:04:38,249 --> 01:04:35,799
is not so much a question but a fact

1446
01:04:41,249 --> 01:04:38,259
which we you might find interesting

1447
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:41,259
the Orford ness lighthouse that many

1448
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:43,690
said was the explanation for what halt

1449
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:46,210
was seeing is actually being scheduled

1450
01:04:51,269 --> 01:04:48,250
for demolition after two hundred and

1451
01:04:55,470 --> 01:04:51,279
twenty years a functioning isn't that

1452
01:04:58,950 --> 01:04:55,480
crazy I think for the record I don't

1453
01:05:01,650 --> 01:04:58,960
think you know the maybe one or two

1454
01:05:03,809 --> 01:05:01,660
people at some point maybe saw you know

1455
01:05:05,759 --> 01:05:03,819
the lights from the from the lighthouse

1456
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:05,769
and saw something and thought it might

1457
01:05:11,490 --> 01:05:08,079
have been you know there is somehow

1458
01:05:13,289 --> 01:05:11,500
connected but I think you know that if

1459
01:05:16,589 --> 01:05:13,299
that happened it would be sort of like a

1460
01:05:20,819 --> 01:05:16,599
minut part of the entire story even you

1461
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:20,829
know beyond on you but yeah I mean the

1462
01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:22,650
whole area is sort of filled with

1463
01:05:27,299 --> 01:05:25,839
historical and government places I mean

1464
01:05:29,519 --> 01:05:27,309
you've got offered nests you know the

1465
01:05:30,749 --> 01:05:29,529
lighthouse you know sort of gonna be

1466
01:05:33,269 --> 01:05:30,759
razed to the ground

1467
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:33,279
you've got Hollis liebe a prison that

1468
01:05:38,999 --> 01:05:35,650
was going to be evacuated you got Cobra

1469
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:39,009
missed the Tizard committee the shingle

1470
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:41,170
street story you know where the German

1471
01:05:45,569 --> 01:05:43,210
troops were all set on fire and the

1472
01:05:50,730 --> 01:05:45,579
beach when they tried to invade the

1473
01:05:51,540 --> 01:05:50,740
whole area is just weird and saturated

1474
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:51,550
in

1475
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:54,690
pacified programs and for me I cannot

1476
01:06:02,040 --> 01:05:59,440
extract that from the UFO story you know

1477
01:06:05,340 --> 01:06:02,050
it's Rendlesham forest is not your

1478
01:06:07,140 --> 01:06:05,350
average place no that's the you need a

1479
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:07,150
concise terms that's the best way I can

1480
01:06:13,590 --> 01:06:09,760
describe it yeah I would have to agree

1481
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:13,600
with you well in terms of Rendlesham

1482
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:17,410
Nick and Roswell two cases that you have

1483
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:19,770
clearly brought some controversial

1484
01:06:25,620 --> 01:06:23,050
theories - are there any other UFO cases

1485
01:06:28,050 --> 01:06:25,630
that you'd like to really you know shake

1486
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:28,060
up and bring forth some new stuff

1487
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:29,680
anything you're working on in terms of

1488
01:06:41,790 --> 01:06:38,970
these alternate explanations well

1489
01:06:44,220 --> 01:06:41,800
another one which is probably going to

1490
01:06:47,850 --> 01:06:44,230
piss off a few other people but again it

1491
01:06:51,420 --> 01:06:47,860
sort of smacks of reality please the

1492
01:06:55,340 --> 01:06:51,430
Charles Hickson Calvin Parker alien

1493
01:06:59,040 --> 01:06:55,350
abduction of 1973 I mean that case the

1494
01:07:02,640 --> 01:06:59,050
particular case the is one of the

1495
01:07:06,570 --> 01:07:02,650
primary alien abduction cases not just

1496
01:07:09,630 --> 01:07:06,580
at the 1970s but have throughout alien

1497
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:09,640
abduction history itself and the story

1498
01:07:15,330 --> 01:07:12,730
is that the two men were on the edge of

1499
01:07:17,130 --> 01:07:15,340
the Mississippi River fishing late at

1500
01:07:20,190 --> 01:07:17,140
night you know a certain I just hanging

1501
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:20,200
out I'm in a good time and they saw this

1502
01:07:25,350 --> 01:07:22,930
strange light coming towards them things

1503
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:25,360
started to go weird they were taken on

1504
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:27,850
board a craft and then it was followed

1505
01:07:34,530 --> 01:07:32,130
by some sort of classic abduction

1506
01:07:36,630 --> 01:07:34,540
interestingly enough they were taken to

1507
01:07:39,030 --> 01:07:36,640
a nearby military base after and

1508
01:07:41,490 --> 01:07:39,040
questioned all sorts of questions you

1509
01:07:43,650 --> 01:07:41,500
know what did you see etc etc it's

1510
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:43,660
almost as if the the people who were

1511
01:07:48,990 --> 01:07:45,910
going to interview them were primed and

1512
01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:49,000
ready now what's particularly intriguing

1513
01:07:55,470 --> 01:07:53,710
is that Hickson and Parker when they had

1514
01:07:58,680 --> 01:07:55,480
experienced a lot of people don't know

1515
01:08:01,890 --> 01:07:58,690
this but where they were abducted from

1516
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:01,900
and whoever they were abducted by was

1517
01:08:05,420 --> 01:08:04,210
not too far from a place called Horn

1518
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:05,430
Island

1519
01:08:16,790 --> 01:08:12,570
where a lot of the early hallucinogenic

1520
01:08:18,350 --> 01:08:16,800
mind-altering technology was tested just

1521
01:08:21,650 --> 01:08:18,360
down the on horn-like

1522
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:21,660
Horn Island not too far from where the

1523
01:08:26,660 --> 01:08:23,850
two men were abducted now wasn't

1524
01:08:29,780 --> 01:08:26,670
particularly intriguing is that the work

1525
01:08:32,140 --> 01:08:29,790
on Horn Island was cancelled for one

1526
01:08:35,330 --> 01:08:32,150
particular reason and that was because

1527
01:08:39,020 --> 01:08:35,340
the some of the experiments involved

1528
01:08:41,210 --> 01:08:39,030
aerosol Bay solution a genex and they

1529
01:08:43,190 --> 01:08:41,220
couldn't guarantee that the winds

1530
01:08:45,890 --> 01:08:43,200
wouldn't blow in the wrong direction and

1531
01:08:48,530 --> 01:08:45,900
head towards civilization so to speak

1532
01:08:51,470 --> 01:08:48,540
pop you know populated areas that sounds

1533
01:08:53,690 --> 01:08:51,480
almost identical to what happened in

1534
01:08:55,220 --> 01:08:53,700
Rendlesham forest with the prison the

1535
01:08:58,510 --> 01:08:55,230
youngsters prison

1536
01:09:01,160 --> 01:08:58,520
Hollis Lee Bay you know with the idea of

1537
01:09:03,140 --> 01:09:01,170
evacuating the place because of the wind

1538
01:09:06,860 --> 01:09:03,150
blowing the us projects so in other

1539
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:06,870
words there are aspects of the Hickson

1540
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:09,690
Parker's story which is very similar to

1541
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:12,480
certain portions of Rendlesham as well

1542
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:15,600
Wow I feel like only you would be able

1543
01:09:22,730 --> 01:09:19,850
to make a connection between Pascagoula

1544
01:09:25,670 --> 01:09:22,740
that's amazing Wow well actually there's

1545
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:25,680
to give a plug to another book the book

1546
01:09:30,910 --> 01:09:28,560
the guy who who dug all this out about

1547
01:09:34,190 --> 01:09:30,920
Parker and Hicks urn and the

1548
01:09:36,830 --> 01:09:34,200
hallucinogenics and Horn Island was a

1549
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:36,840
guy named Ostia shows a was he still is

1550
01:09:41,900 --> 01:09:38,610
a guy now Hank

1551
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:41,910
Alber Ellie and he wrote a book called a

1552
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:44,400
terrible mistake and it's all about the

1553
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:46,890
death of a guy named Frank Olson who was

1554
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:49,770
one of the early MKULTRA guys and he

1555
01:09:53,890 --> 01:09:51,690
died of what very controversial

1556
01:09:57,290 --> 01:09:53,900
circumstances he was able pushed or

1557
01:09:58,880 --> 01:09:57,300
thrown or jumped out of a hotel window

1558
01:10:02,030 --> 01:09:58,890
and there's still a lot of controversy

1559
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:02,040
about it now but Al barelli's book is a

1560
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:04,650
really good book a terrible mistake and

1561
01:10:09,860 --> 01:10:07,530
he talks about the Hicks and Parker case

1562
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:09,870
and Gorham you know and it's so close to

1563
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:11,610
Horn Island where all this sort of

1564
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:13,770
mind-altering technology was being used

1565
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:17,250
and also I mean if we've got time the

1566
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:18,250
fearless Boers

1567
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:23,170
case of 1957 Antonio Villas Boas claimed

1568
01:10:28,670 --> 01:10:25,530
that he'd been taken on board a UFO and

1569
01:10:34,770 --> 01:10:28,680
had sex with this sort of hot looking

1570
01:10:36,690 --> 01:10:34,780
uber space baby and sounds really cool

1571
01:10:40,010 --> 01:10:36,700
you know I mean most people wouldn't

1572
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:40,020
sort of say no but the story itself is

1573
01:10:46,350 --> 01:10:42,970
intriguing because of the time frame and

1574
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:46,360
what Phyllis Bose actually said versus

1575
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:48,250
what so many people do follow gee have

1576
01:10:53,460 --> 01:10:51,340
said now people one of the people who

1577
01:10:56,790 --> 01:10:53,470
spoke about this was a guy named Ned

1578
01:10:58,680 --> 01:10:56,800
Bosco Nadel Kovac and he was someone who

1579
01:11:01,560 --> 01:10:58,690
was connected to the US intelligence

1580
01:11:04,290 --> 01:11:01,570
community and before his death

1581
01:11:07,650 --> 01:11:04,300
Nadel Kovac said that the villas-boas

1582
01:11:12,050 --> 01:11:07,660
case was kind of like an MKULTRA program

1583
01:11:14,850 --> 01:11:12,060
and he claimed that the UFO that

1584
01:11:16,740 --> 01:11:14,860
supposedly took villas-boas on board was

1585
01:11:19,290 --> 01:11:16,750
actually a helicopter now some people

1586
01:11:21,900 --> 01:11:19,300
might laugh at that but I mean if you

1587
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:21,910
actually read villas-boas his very own

1588
01:11:27,480 --> 01:11:24,730
words in his own words when he was

1589
01:11:30,570 --> 01:11:27,490
interviewed he said that the craft that

1590
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:30,580
he was taken on board was kind of like

1591
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:34,090
an elongated type of craft and he said

1592
01:11:39,090 --> 01:11:35,890
that on top of it with something

1593
01:11:41,970 --> 01:11:39,100
spinning at high speed and something was

1594
01:11:44,340 --> 01:11:41,980
going making like a whoop kind of noise

1595
01:11:47,910 --> 01:11:44,350
yeah which sounds to me just like a

1596
01:11:49,830 --> 01:11:47,920
helicopter now on top of that and this

1597
01:11:52,260 --> 01:11:49,840
is where it gets really interesting is

1598
01:11:54,450 --> 01:11:52,270
that a number of documents have now

1599
01:11:57,570 --> 01:11:54,460
surfaced and I mentioned one of those in

1600
01:12:01,620 --> 01:11:57,580
the book a surfaced showing that in the

1601
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:01,630
mid-1950s that the CIA hired prostitutes

1602
01:12:07,830 --> 01:12:05,410
to dose people you know in like a hotel

1603
01:12:09,750 --> 01:12:07,840
room and it'd be like with a you know a

1604
01:12:14,190 --> 01:12:09,760
mirror where you could see both sides

1605
01:12:17,820 --> 01:12:14,200
and they would use for example LSD on

1606
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:17,830
people and see the responses to the LSD

1607
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:21,490
and so the theory is that villas-boas

1608
01:12:28,190 --> 01:12:24,730
was taken on board a helicopter exposed

1609
01:12:29,930 --> 01:12:28,200
to extremely quick fast working

1610
01:12:32,150 --> 01:12:29,940
hallucinogenics

1611
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:32,160
and and he may well have even had sex

1612
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:34,290
with the woman you know she was a hooker

1613
01:12:38,750 --> 01:12:36,330
and when you reach sounds bizarre but

1614
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:38,760
when you read the story it all comes

1615
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:41,730
together and it sounds very much like a

1616
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:44,930
staged early at a very very early stage

1617
01:12:52,430 --> 01:12:47,850
alien abduction event that was played

1618
01:12:55,430 --> 01:12:52,440
out to present to the UFO community if

1619
01:12:58,340 --> 01:12:55,440
you like one of the very earliest alien

1620
01:13:00,320 --> 01:12:58,350
abductions but which may not actually

1621
01:13:03,010 --> 01:13:00,330
been anything of the sorts at all it

1622
01:13:06,530 --> 01:13:03,020
could have been a very strange very

1623
01:13:09,050 --> 01:13:06,540
alternative kind of staged event Wow

1624
01:13:12,170 --> 01:13:09,060
that is absolutely fascinating you know

1625
01:13:14,330 --> 01:13:12,180
it just reminds me I always go back to

1626
01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:14,340
my theater roots and who said it better

1627
01:13:23,180 --> 01:13:16,110
than Shakespeare all the world is a

1628
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:23,190
stage I don't think he really cared

1629
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:31,890
whether it was a an alien woman or at

1630
01:13:37,850 --> 01:13:36,090
that point hey who can argue yeah I mean

1631
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:37,860
one important thing and I talked about

1632
01:13:43,190 --> 01:13:40,050
this in the book as well he's highly

1633
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:43,200
controversial is that John Fuller who

1634
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:46,170
wrote the first alien abduction book

1635
01:13:51,170 --> 01:13:48,510
skids on the Betty and Barney Hill case

1636
01:13:52,990 --> 01:13:51,180
the interrupted journey when that book

1637
01:13:55,700 --> 01:13:53,000
came out a lot of people didn't realize

1638
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:55,710
that John Fuller who wrote the first

1639
01:14:00,650 --> 01:13:58,080
alien abduction book was heavily

1640
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:00,660
involved with some of the people who

1641
01:14:05,450 --> 01:14:03,570
worked in the CIA's MKULTRA program he

1642
01:14:08,300 --> 01:14:05,460
was friends with them and even had

1643
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:08,310
insiders who were willing to sort of

1644
01:14:12,350 --> 01:14:10,170
share with him you know what was going

1645
01:14:15,260 --> 01:14:12,360
on with MKULTRA and what the status of

1646
01:14:17,330 --> 01:14:15,270
sort of research into that field was and

1647
01:14:19,430 --> 01:14:17,340
some people think that he may actually

1648
01:14:23,210 --> 01:14:19,440
even have been brought into the program

1649
01:14:26,690 --> 01:14:23,220
to reinforce this the alien abduction

1650
01:14:29,510 --> 01:14:26,700
angle to cry to try and create that the

1651
01:14:32,110 --> 01:14:29,520
Lord if you like and the legend of alien

1652
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:32,120
abductions and kickstart off the whole

1653
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:35,010
abduction phenomenon but doing it is

1654
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:38,090
kind of like as like as a mind altering

1655
01:14:42,650 --> 01:14:40,890
project if you like yeah I mean you just

1656
01:14:43,339 --> 01:14:42,660
keep tracing back further and further

1657
01:14:47,870 --> 01:14:43,349
and

1658
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:47,880
perfect sense you know creating the

1659
01:14:55,100 --> 01:14:52,800
mythology and yeah but the big problem

1660
01:14:57,709 --> 01:14:55,110
is and this isn't you know a slur on

1661
01:15:00,140 --> 01:14:57,719
paper in ufology but the fact is not

1662
01:15:01,850 --> 01:15:00,150
many people in ufology want to hear that

1663
01:15:04,220 --> 01:15:01,860
yeah

1664
01:15:07,459 --> 01:15:04,230
aliens that's why this works so

1665
01:15:10,729 --> 01:15:07,469
brilliantly because people do want to

1666
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:10,739
hear about UFOs and they don't want to

1667
01:15:16,189 --> 01:15:13,130
hear about Nick talking about Holograms

1668
01:15:18,530 --> 01:15:16,199
you know I mean even I mean you know

1669
01:15:21,709 --> 01:15:18,540
I'll be brutally honest I know people

1670
01:15:23,649 --> 01:15:21,719
don't want the truth to be what it is in

1671
01:15:26,660 --> 01:15:23,659
my book they want it to be

1672
01:15:29,629 --> 01:15:26,670
extraterrestrial but I mean I can only

1673
01:15:31,069 --> 01:15:29,639
present it as it is you know but that's

1674
01:15:32,870 --> 01:15:31,079
one of the most brilliant things about

1675
01:15:36,470 --> 01:15:32,880
it you know the reason why these

1676
01:15:39,229 --> 01:15:36,480
programs work is because so many people

1677
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:39,239
as I said do want that's a baby answer

1678
01:15:44,569 --> 01:15:41,610
they want the alien angles they don't

1679
01:15:47,780 --> 01:15:44,579
want to know that Roswell was a secret

1680
01:15:50,149 --> 01:15:47,790
military experiment you know or one of

1681
01:15:52,700 --> 01:15:50,159
the most famous alien abduction writers

1682
01:15:54,830 --> 01:15:52,710
you know was hooked into MKULTRA they

1683
01:15:58,189 --> 01:15:54,840
don't want that and and that's what

1684
01:15:59,990 --> 01:15:58,199
you're up against so got ufology next

1685
01:16:02,660 --> 01:16:00,000
you follow G in hey man it's not an easy

1686
01:16:04,550 --> 01:16:02,670
road to take so I respect you for for

1687
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:04,560
doing that I think the field needs that

1688
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:06,570
desperately when it comes to this topic

1689
01:16:11,750 --> 01:16:09,570
the power of belief outweighs everything

1690
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:11,760
for some of these people and I think

1691
01:16:15,950 --> 01:16:14,610
without asking these questions we're not

1692
01:16:18,290 --> 01:16:15,960
going to get anywhere and I know there's

1693
01:16:20,180 --> 01:16:18,300
a lot of people who told me like you

1694
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:20,190
shouldn't be doing that interview he

1695
01:16:24,020 --> 01:16:21,570
like he's just spreading more

1696
01:16:26,060 --> 01:16:24,030
disinformation but I argue to those

1697
01:16:28,100 --> 01:16:26,070
listening to this and who told me not to

1698
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:28,110
do this interview I think the

1699
01:16:32,780 --> 01:16:30,690
disinformation comes from blind faith

1700
01:16:35,450 --> 01:16:32,790
and belief in something that we have

1701
01:16:38,149 --> 01:16:35,460
absolutely no definitive proof of so

1702
01:16:40,339 --> 01:16:38,159
yeah for anyone who does go with the

1703
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:40,349
alien theory on Rendlesham or any of

1704
01:16:43,550 --> 01:16:41,520
these other things you've brought up

1705
01:16:45,500 --> 01:16:43,560
that's fine that's perfectly fine but

1706
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:45,510
then you got to think to yourself maybe

1707
01:16:51,169 --> 01:16:48,000
that's what they want it all home well

1708
01:16:52,970 --> 01:16:51,179
you know I mean mice and I Ronnie but I

1709
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:52,980
mean I would love it if Rendlesham

1710
01:16:57,020 --> 01:16:56,250
really was extraterrestrial because okay

1711
01:16:59,780 --> 01:16:57,030
he might

1712
01:17:02,300 --> 01:16:59,790
show that I was wrong but it would also

1713
01:17:06,230 --> 01:17:02,310
show that we had we really have had

1714
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:06,240
alien visitations so you know even for

1715
01:17:12,110 --> 01:17:08,730
me you know I wish some of these cases

1716
01:17:13,970 --> 01:17:12,120
were actually terrestrial but you know

1717
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:13,980
when you look further and further into

1718
01:17:19,430 --> 01:17:17,370
them I just saw like I begin to see sort

1719
01:17:21,440 --> 01:17:19,440
of red flags and red light you know

1720
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:21,450
coming here and and threads and leads

1721
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:23,250
here between different programs and

1722
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:25,650
military programs and and they all you

1723
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:28,170
know they're all tied around Rendlesham

1724
01:17:33,650 --> 01:17:31,290
forest and and so for me whatever the

1725
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:33,660
answer is I mean frankly you know I

1726
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:35,690
don't really care what you follow gee

1727
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:37,770
thinks about me like I said I've got

1728
01:17:42,230 --> 01:17:39,930
thick skin I don't lose sleep about this

1729
01:17:44,390 --> 01:17:42,240
and if somebody wants a good argument

1730
01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:44,400
and a fight well that's cool that's fine

1731
01:17:52,100 --> 01:17:48,960
by me you know okay and but in saying

1732
01:17:55,610 --> 01:17:52,110
that I think yeah there is way too much

1733
01:17:57,260 --> 01:17:55,620
belief in ufology and really we should

1734
01:18:00,200 --> 01:17:57,270
just be looking for evidence not for

1735
01:18:02,270 --> 01:18:00,210
belief I mean you know not to you know

1736
01:18:04,430 --> 01:18:02,280
sort of besmirch people who were

1737
01:18:08,750 --> 01:18:04,440
religious faith but I mean a lot of

1738
01:18:11,570 --> 01:18:08,760
religion is based on belief and hey I

1739
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:11,580
don't care I don't mind if people you

1740
01:18:17,420 --> 01:18:14,250
know base their you know their systems

1741
01:18:19,460 --> 01:18:17,430
of faith on belief but I just wish

1742
01:18:21,860 --> 01:18:19,470
instead of having belief we could have

1743
01:18:23,390 --> 01:18:21,870
we could have evidence and the reason

1744
01:18:26,030 --> 01:18:23,400
you know if you look at that in the

1745
01:18:28,700 --> 01:18:26,040
dictionary you know the description of

1746
01:18:30,710 --> 01:18:28,710
belief versus evidence they're two

1747
01:18:32,780 --> 01:18:30,720
different things you know yeah it's a

1748
01:18:36,590 --> 01:18:32,790
really good point well I mean Nick in

1749
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:36,600
terms of moving forward with all of this

1750
01:18:40,700 --> 01:18:39,570
you have a really good after word in the

1751
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:40,710
book which I don't want to give away

1752
01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:42,810
here I think people should read it about

1753
01:18:47,810 --> 01:18:45,510
your continued efforts and work into

1754
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:47,820
looking at Rendlesham but what comes

1755
01:18:51,500 --> 01:18:49,890
next I know you're always working on

1756
01:18:53,810 --> 01:18:51,510
something so is there anything you can

1757
01:18:57,770 --> 01:18:53,820
share with us on what we can expect next

1758
01:19:00,260 --> 01:18:57,780
from you well one of my other big

1759
01:19:02,540 --> 01:19:00,270
interest is cryptozoology which is the

1760
01:19:05,420 --> 01:19:02,550
study of unknown animals like Bigfoot's

1761
01:19:07,730 --> 01:19:05,430
like monsters Chupacabra things like

1762
01:19:10,580 --> 01:19:07,740
that and I've got a book coming out in

1763
01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:10,590
August called monsters of the deep and

1764
01:19:15,020 --> 01:19:13,199
all to do we like monsters like Loch

1765
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:15,030
Ness monster things like that sea

1766
01:19:20,540 --> 01:19:18,090
serpents giant squid things like the

1767
01:19:22,879 --> 01:19:20,550
Kraken and how they the legends and the

1768
01:19:25,250 --> 01:19:22,889
myths of the Kraken developed and so

1769
01:19:26,899 --> 01:19:25,260
anything that's sort of monstrous and

1770
01:19:29,570 --> 01:19:26,909
living deep in the waters that's what

1771
01:19:31,609 --> 01:19:29,580
the new book will be out be about and

1772
01:19:33,550 --> 01:19:31,619
then in October I've got another one

1773
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:33,560
caught it's just called the Martians and

1774
01:19:39,220 --> 01:19:36,480
it's sort of like a full-length very

1775
01:19:41,660 --> 01:19:39,230
lengthy book on the the whole

1776
01:19:45,109 --> 01:19:41,670
controversy surrounding was there at

1777
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:45,119
some point advanced life on Mars and

1778
01:19:49,820 --> 01:19:47,760
looks and the book looks at you know the

1779
01:19:51,830 --> 01:19:49,830
old legends and stories and some of

1780
01:19:54,950 --> 01:19:51,840
these strange photographs that NASA

1781
01:19:57,760 --> 01:19:54,960
itself even have taken you know what

1782
01:20:00,979 --> 01:19:57,770
looked kind of like the remnants and the

1783
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:00,989
you know sort of the crumbling remnants

1784
01:20:06,919 --> 01:20:04,530
of ancient cities and buildings on Mars

1785
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:06,929
so it looks at the the idea that

1786
01:20:11,450 --> 01:20:09,570
possibly thousands of years ago maybe

1787
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:11,460
hundreds of thousands of years ago there

1788
01:20:16,580 --> 01:20:12,770
could have been some sort of ancient

1789
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:16,590
race on the moon Mars itself so that one

1790
01:20:21,410 --> 01:20:19,770
will be out in October so it's monsters

1791
01:20:24,649 --> 01:20:21,420
of the day in August and then the

1792
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:24,659
Martians in October hey I love it man

1793
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,570
there's two things we we explore on this

1794
01:20:32,060 --> 01:20:29,760
planet it's what's below us and what's

1795
01:20:34,669 --> 01:20:32,070
above us and you're covering both angles

1796
01:20:37,370 --> 01:20:34,679
so I absolutely love that

1797
01:20:39,459 --> 01:20:37,380
before we go Nick where can we find the

1798
01:20:42,950 --> 01:20:39,469
book and everything else you're up to

1799
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:42,960
well the books available from Amazon and

1800
01:20:48,770 --> 01:20:45,449
you can get it in paperback and kindle

1801
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:48,780
and people can reach me at my blog which

1802
01:20:52,879 --> 01:20:50,570
is called world of whatever if you just

1803
01:20:55,070 --> 01:20:52,889
look for Nick Redfern world of whatever

1804
01:20:58,220 --> 01:20:55,080
you'll find me you can reach me at

1805
01:20:59,979 --> 01:20:58,230
Twitter Nick Redfern UFO and you can

1806
01:21:02,149 --> 01:20:59,989
find me at Facebook just there's a few

1807
01:21:04,490 --> 01:21:02,159
Redferns but just sort of scroll down

1808
01:21:06,350 --> 01:21:04,500
you'll see me and always happy to chat

1809
01:21:08,180 --> 01:21:06,360
with people I'm not one of these these

1810
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:08,190
authors who don't want to talk you know

1811
01:21:13,879 --> 01:21:11,250
don't talk to me I'm an author I don't

1812
01:21:16,430 --> 01:21:13,889
have any time for that so people

1813
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:16,440
sauron to share information or you know

1814
01:21:20,209 --> 01:21:18,210
they've seen something they want some

1815
01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:20,219
advice or some help you know I'm always

1816
01:21:23,780 --> 01:21:22,679
happy to take the time and you know chat

1817
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:23,790
with them

1818
01:21:28,610 --> 01:21:25,890
so well once again the book is the

1819
01:21:30,830 --> 01:21:28,620
Rendlesham forest UFO conspiracy and

1820
01:21:32,510 --> 01:21:30,840
this has been Nick Redfern Nick thank

1821
01:21:34,810 --> 01:21:32,520
you so much for joining me again and

1822
01:22:14,930 --> 01:21:34,820
somewhere in the skies all right

1823
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:14,940
[Music]

1824
01:22:19,440 --> 01:22:17,170
[Applause]

1825
01:22:21,210 --> 01:22:19,450
somewhere in the skies is produced by

1826
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:21,220
Third Kind productions in association